Captain Handley Carleton Grace, 6th Bn Northamptonshire Regt., Died of Wounds whilst a POW 2/9/17

[Old Owl]

Hi All,

I am trying to find some information surrounding the demise of the above officer and hopefully a portrait of him. I have found the usual CWGC info and medal index card, but I am struggling to get much further.

Any pointers of other help/info would be much appreciated.

Many thanks,

Best, Robert

[mancpal]

Have you checked the ICRC archives (free access) for any details of his time in captivity? It’s not the easiest site to navigate but frequently adds some further information, place of capture, camp/camps he was registered with.

Simon

Edited 29 March by mancpal

[PRC]

Three International Committe of the Red Cross (ICRC) record cards here pointing at three reports received from the German authorities. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/151749/3/2/

Serving with "A" Company when captured on the 11th August 1917 with shot wounds to back and lungs. You'll see from the page linked to that there is a seach box where you can input each of the three references which will then bring up a copy of the list \ report received from the Germans.

And if you don't already have it the Battalions' War Diary for the time of his capture can currently be downloaded for free from the UK National Archive. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352999

Cheers,
Peter

[charlie2]

Even though he is recorded on a list of deaths from Limburg, it is only a report from the echelon area. He died at the Feldlazarett in Courtrai and was buried there in the British soldiers cemetery. PA 16134 records that he was serving with C Company when he was taken PoW.

Charlie

[DavidOwen]

From Cambridge Daily News 22 August 1917 (courtesy FMP) No photo sadly.

[DavidOwen]

Probate awarded to his father (Courtesy Ancestry)

1911 Census confirms birthplace as Blenheim, New Zealand (Courtesy Ancestry)

[Old Owl]

10 hours ago, mancpal said:

Have you checked the ICRC archives (free access) for any details of his time in captivity? It’s not the easiest site to navigate but frequently adds some further information, place of capture, camp/camps he was registered with.

Simon

Many thanks Simon for your interest and suggestion--Peter has already filled in the gaps which have shown up some very interesting details,

Best, Robert

[Old Owl]

8 hours ago, PRC said:

Three International Committe of the Red Cross (ICRC) record cards here pointing at three reports received from the German authorities. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/151749/3/2/

Serving with "A" Company when captured on the 11th August 1917 with shot wounds to back and lungs. You'll see from the page linked to that there is a seach box where you can input each of the three references which will then bring up a copy of the list \ report received from the Germans.

And if you don't already have it the Battalions' War Diary for the time of his capture can currently be downloaded for free from the UK National Archive. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352999

Cheers,
Peter

Many thanks Peter for the links.

The ICRC entries are most helpful and I have now copied them--these will be a great addition to my file on him.

I shall now check out the war diaries and see what they show,

Thanks again for your assistance,

Best, Robert

[Old Owl]

3 hours ago, charlie2 said:

Even though he is recorded on a list of deaths from Limburg, it is only a report from the echelon area. He died at the Feldlazarett in Courtrai and was buried there in the British soldiers cemetery. PA 16134 records that he was serving with C Company when he was taken PoW.

Charlie

Many thanks Charlie--the entry does indeed suggest 'C' Coy, possibly the war diary may clarify whether it was 'A' or 'C' Coy. 

Is the Feldlazarett in Courtrai a Field Hospital or a POW camp?

Many thanks again,

Best, Robert

 

[Old Owl]

2 hours ago, DavidOwen said:

From Cambridge Daily News 22 August 1917 (courtesy FMP) No photo sadly.

Many thanks David, this is most useful and fills in a number of gaps, whilst at the same time opening up several avenues to pursue from a researching angle.

Most helpful,

Best, Robert

[charlie2]

Hi Robert

A Feldlazarett is a Field Hospital.

Charlie

[Old Owl]

24 minutes ago, charlie2 said:

Hi Robert

A Feldlazarett is a Field Hospital.

Charlie

Many thanks Charlie,

Best, Robert

[Old Owl]

On 30/03/2024 at 05:56, charlie2 said:

Even though he is recorded on a list of deaths from Limburg, it is only a report from the echelon area. He died at the Feldlazarett in Courtrai and was buried there in the British soldiers cemetery. PA 16134 records that he was serving with C Company when he was taken PoW.

Charlie

Hi Charlie,

I have now had the opportunity to look through the 6th Bn war diary, which sadly fails to mention the names of the company officers or indeed any officers at all!

It simply relates that there was '1 officer killed and 3 officers missing' so presumably Captain Grace was one of those missing. It is also noted that: 'A' and 'D' Companies will be attached, one to each of the two attacking battalions, 11th Bn Royal Fusiliers and 7th Bn Bedford Regt respectively, as 'Mopping up' companies. 'C' Company will garrison the Strong points and 'B' Company will furnish the carrying parties.

So not really any wiser, although the ICRC cards do indicate that Captain Grace was of 'A' Company on PA 14686 and was taken on 11/8/17 at Wytschaete with 'shot wound back and lungs' and on P.A. 21339 that he died 2/9/17 from 'heart weakness, result of wounds'.

I suppose that it is unlikely that the full concise story will appear, but the basic details are pretty sound and good enough to build on.

Many thanks for everyone's input,

Best, Robert

 

[PRC]

3 hours ago, Old Owl said:

It simply relates that there was '1 officer killed and 3 officers missing' so presumably Captain Grace was one of those missing. It is also noted that: 'A' and 'D' Companies will be attached, one to each of the two attacking battalions, 11th Bn Royal Fusiliers and 7th Bn Bedford Regt respectively, as 'Mopping up' companies.

If it's any help here's the relevant pages of the Regiment History of the Royal Fusiliers:-

From Royal Fusiliers in the Great War by H.C. O'Neill - copies available on Archive Org.

The War Diaries of the Bedfordshire Regiment have been transcribed and put on line. The 7th Battalion for 1917 can be found here http://www.bedfordregiment.org.uk/7thbn/7thbtn1917diary.html

Cheers,
Peter

[AOK4]

There were several Feldlazarette in Kortrijk at the time. It's almost impossible to say in which one he died.

[Old Owl]

10 hours ago, PRC said:

If it's any help here's the relevant pages of the Regiment History of the Royal Fusiliers:-

From Royal Fusiliers in the Great War by H.C. O'Neill - copies available on Archive Org.

The War Diaries of the Bedfordshire Regiment have been transcribed and put on line. The 7th Battalion for 1917 can be found here http://www.bedfordregiment.org.uk/7thbn/7thbtn1917diary.html

Cheers,
Peter

Many thanks Peter,

This makes interesting reading and shows that this 'minor operation' had quite serious consequences for the 11th Royal Fusiliers, who lost circa 350 officers and men during the course of 24 hours.

I shall take a look at the 7th Bedford's war diary and see what it has to add.

Many thanks for the info and also the link,

Best, Robert

 

[Old Owl]

7 hours ago, AOK4 said:

There were several Feldlazarette in Kortrijk at the time. It's almost impossible to say in which one he died.

Hi AOK4,

Indeed, it only mentions a 'Limburg List' on the ICRC cards.

However from a site 'Herts at War' it says: 'Was shot in the back and lung, taken to the German Field Hospital No 281 and from there to Hospital No 33 near Kortrijk (Courtrai) where he died on 2/9/17. His parents were advised that he had been taken prisoner and was in Limburg, Germany and it was not until 27/11/17 did they receive a copy of his death certificate sent via the Red Cross in Germany'.

So presumably his death certificate had included the details of the Field Hospitals in which he was treated?

German efficiency for detail may explain why this information was included?

Best, Robert

 

[AOK4]

Unfortunately, I have neither 281 nor 33 in Kortrijk in August-September 1917. On 27 November 1917, Bavarian Field Hospital 33 was in Kortrijk, which was probably the unit that wrote the death certificate. Feldlazarett 281 may have been in Gullegem at the time and would fit with the sector where the man was wounded and captured. Although he should have been buried in Gullegem then originally...