Leonard Pickering

[jdhamlyn]

Hello,

I have been doing research on my great great grandfather and had a few questions and might have made mistakes in understanding it so would like to ask for some help. A few things on the Casualty Form I questioned are 14 October 1917, I cant tell which hospitals he was admitted to. 28 October 1917 "Embarked AT Newhaven for England", am I wrong in thinking Newhaven is where they would arrive? Same day "Admitted 2/1 Southern General Hospital", am I safe to assume thats just 1 Southern Gen Hosp?  19 March 1918 "forfeits 2 days pay" and then I cant tell what it says.

On the Promotions and Casualties Form I believe it says 28 July 1918 "Detached to L G School". Is that Lewis Gun School? Also if it is, would he have been part of a Lewis Gun team before and/or after going?

Sorry for having so many questions, any help is appreciated.

 Thanks

James 

 

Source: https://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE19523055

[jdhamlyn]

Also 3 March 1919 on the Promotions and Casualties Form says "WPD sling in Germany"? I know Sling is in England so I didn't understand.

[Michelle Young]

From the LLT

Birmingham: 2/1st Southern General Hospital, Dudley Road. Orginally a section of the 1st Southern General it became a separate unit from 1 June 1917. Eventually 920 beds

[kenf48]

6 hours ago, jdhamlyn said:

Embarked AT Newhaven for England", am I wrong in thinking Newhaven is where they would arrive?

"Embarked Ambulance Train (to) Newhaven for England" AT is the abbreviation for Ambulance Train. Newhaven was a boat train terminal with a direct line to London.

It is a classic casualty evacuation chain:-

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/the-evacuation-chain-for-wounded-and-sick-soldiers/

14 October 1917 seen by the Battalion MO (trench feet) he cannot treat and orders him to hospital 'sick'

14 October 1917 admitted to No 3 Australian Field Ambulance (FA)

14 October 1917 Moves up the chain to 3 Canadian Casualty Clearing Station

16 October 1917 conveyed, in all probability by train to No 11 General Hospital at Rouen (a base depot hospital)

28 October 1917 His trench foot did not respond to treatment and he was put on an ambulance train and evacuated  to  the UK 

He is then put on another train to Birmingham (I don't know it may have been because they had beds/specialist treatment or he had some affinity with the District)

In any event he he transferred to the NZ General Hospital at Brockenhurst a month later and finally to the  NZ convalescent hospital on 27.12.1917

From there he was posted to the NZ Command Depot (see above link) this is where men were given fitness training etc to prepare them for return to the Front

He was granted a period of leave while at the Depot and although it is not clear the two days pay was the sort of punishment for overstaying his leave or missing parades

Finally fit he was posted to 3rd Reserve Battalion NZEF at Sling Camp and from there posted back to France

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/266977-new-zealanders-australian-at-sling-camp-1919/

[jdhamlyn]

Hello Michelle and Kenf,

 Thank you for the quick responses. I completely ignored the Remarks section and never even saw that he had trench foot! Kenf, you say the No 11 Gen Hosp is at Rouen, but on LLT it says it was handed over to the Americans in May 1917. Did the No 11 Stationary Hospital change to General? Sorry that I have so little knowledge on these subjects, trying my best to learn.

 Thanks

James

Edit: https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/british-base-hospitals-in-france/

Edited 24 March by jdhamlyn

[TEW]

Small  point regarding Newhaven.

I believe Newhaven was a hospital ship. The record says he 'embarked AT  Newhaven'.

It's an odd way to write it but AT can mean Ambulance Transport (in this case replacing HS for hospital ship).

Alternatively it means he was entrained on an ambulance train for evacuation to UK via EG. Le Havre but still by The Newhaven.

Rouen was someway inland and I'm not so sure large vessels could navigate the river.

Lastly, the information for that entry comes partly from a W 3083 which is a hospital ship loading tally which would have to have a ship's name.

The X references are I think officers sick/wounded lists.

TEW

 

[TEW]

Just checked a few base diaries and AT is being used for Ambulance Transport IE. Ships.

HMAT Newhaven has a diary which shows a voyage Calais-Dover 28/10/17.

I'm not sure how he got to Calais as the only trains mentioned from Rouen are for Le Havre the previous day. No trains departing Rouen 28th Oct.

Contrary to my previous post Ambulance Transports St. Patrick & St. George did work directly from Rouen.

TEW

[kenf48]

1 hour ago, jdhamlyn said:

you say the No 11 Gen Hosp is at Rouen,

I didn't say No 11 General Hospital was at Rouen - it's what is written on the posted casualty form

In fact the war diary (available for free if you register https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/4cd0f989bda74c6cbec79725acfbe410) shows No 11 General Hospital was located at Camiers on the 16th October 1917 and on 28th October 1917 when 88 cases were evacuated by No 14 Ambulance Train - no destination shown. It had been at Camiers since January 1917. No 11 General Hospital had 351 vacant beds on the 16th October which is probably why he was admitted there.

Whether or not he embarked on HMHS Newhaven and which route he took whether it was from Dieppe or any other Channel port is moot. It's certainly not clear from the form though as he arrived in the UK the same day suggests a shorter crossing.

https://birtwistlewiki.com.au/index.php?title=File:HMHS_Newhaven_1.jpg

The organisation of the BEF and all the medical services, personnel records etc. was a vast bureaucracy both in France and at home in much the same way he went from an Australian FA to a Canadian CCS no reason why he should not be admitted to a hospital run by American doctors.

I note LLT places it as Camiers don't ask me to explain why the clerk wrote 'Rouen'

 

 

[TEW]

The 11 GH at Rouen problem would explain why I couldn't see how he moved from Rouen to the Newhaven's departure.

The Newhaven left Calais 28/10/17 and arrived in Dover the same day.

TEW

[TEW]

14 Ambulance Train left Dannes Camiers for Calais arriving there at 9.45am 28/10/17.

The Newhaven left Calais 14.30 28/10/17. Arrival time Dover not given.

TEW

[kenf48]

21 minutes ago, TEW said:

14 Ambulance Train left Dannes Camiers for Calais arriving there at 9.45am 28/10/17.

The Newhaven left Calais 14.30 28/10/17. Arrival time Dover not given.

TEW

Thank you for the extra detail 

[jdhamlyn]

Hello Kenf and TEW,

Thanks again for clarifying it for me. Do either of you have any knowledge on my 2 other questions? 

On the Promotions and Casualties Form I believe it says 28 July 1918 "Detached to L G School". Is that Lewis Gun School? Also if it is, would he have been part of a Lewis Gun team before and/or after going?

 

Also 3 March 1919 on the Promotions and Casualties Form says "WPD sling in Germany"? I know Sling is in England so I don't understand.

I'm already satisfied with the answers I have gotten so I would understand if you don't answer these.

 

 Thanks

James

[TEW]

He was back in the UK 6/2/19 on leave and had to report to Sling Camp 3/3/19.

I think it says M'in WPD ex Germany'. which usually means Marched in XXX from Germany'. Nothing in his record says he was in Germany unless he went there on leave? 'Marched in' is NZ speak for arrived or rejoined unit.

Not sure why it says 'detained in UK'. Sounds a but draconian but may just be more NZ speak as could WPD

I can't come up with anything for WPD but it's also given in the authority column as 'B213 WPD'. B213 being a weekly roll call I think.

TEW

[jdhamlyn]

Hi TEW,

From what I found, WPD means Wellington Provincial Detachment (at Sling Camp awaiting ship home) from this website.

https://genealogy.org.nz/WW1-Abbreviations/11307/

Also in the war diary for the 1st Battalion Otago Infantry Regiment, after the war ended they marched in to Germany

edit: Removed confusing sentence.

Thanks,

James

Edited 24 March by jdhamlyn

[jdhamlyn]

Hello, 

I apologise for posting this again but I didn't get an answer for it last time. On my great great grandfather Leonard Pickering's records, it says he went to "L.G. School" July 28th 1918. I just wanted to get confirmation that it is indeed Lewis Gun School like I have assumed, and also query as to if (if it is indeed Lewis Gun School) he would've been part of a Lewis Gun team before attending the school, and then becoming one of the main 2 of the team afterwards.

 Thanks

James

 

 

 

 

 

[Michelle Young]

I’ve merged your new query into the  existing thread on Leonard Pickering. Making duplicate posts on the same subject causes confusion. 

[Michelle Young]

I would assume LG School is Lewis Gun School. 

[kenf48]

 

5 hours ago, jdhamlyn said:

I just wanted to get confirmation that it is indeed Lewis Gun School like I have assumed, and also query as to if (if it is indeed Lewis Gun School) he would've been part of a Lewis Gun team before attending the school, and then becoming one of the main 2 of the team afterwards.

 

The key element here is the infamous and key pamphlet 'SS143' this was applied to British units in the BEF but I guess in I=one form or another it was applied to the NZEF.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/definitions-of-units/what-was-a-battalion-of-infantry/

To answer your specific question it seems likely he occupied this position in his platoon after attending the Lewis Gun School

[jdhamlyn]

Hello, 

Thanks for the quick responses and sorry for muddling up the posts.

I have been trying to learn about Lewis Gun sections but I'm finding differing information online. Is LLT the most trustworthy source? I assume so. Also, would it have made sense that he was one of the ammunition carriers in the section before training? Sorry if its an obvious answer or if there is no way to know, just asking what I can think of.

 Thanks

James

[kenf48]

5 hours ago, jdhamlyn said:

Also, would it have made sense that he was one of the ammunition carriers in the section before training? Sorry if its an obvious answer or if there is no way to know, just asking what I can think of.

 

Although my knowledge is confined to the British Army my guess is that the NZEF would follow the same principles of organisation for tactical infantry assault at platoon level as recommended in the pamphlet SS143 published in February 1917. 

The Lewis light machine gun could be produced more cheaply and more quickly than the Vickers, which was retained by the MGC.  Initially the Lewis gun was considered as merely an 'automatic rifle'. It was heavy and still had to be kept clean to function effectively. SS143 initially called for one Lewis gun per thirty six man platoon serviced by a section of nine men carrying thirty drums of ammunition. Each drum contained 47 rounds, compared to the Vickers 250 round belt.  Like any innovation or new weapon introduced in the Great War it took time for its tactical use and acceptance to evolve.

In spite of the proliferation of Lewis Gun Schools in France battle attrition meant more Lewis Gunners were always needed.  This is evidenced by Pte Pickering's record in that he attended the school and on rejoining his unit was wounded within a fortnight and effectively taken out of action until October.

 In the British Army by the time Pte Pickering attended his course in July 1918 there were two guns in each platoon. These were serviced by two four man Lewis gun sections. Platoon tactics had evolved and each section within the platoon had specific weapons and roles in an offensive. There is no way of knowing whether he was an ammunition carrier or member of a Lewis gun section prior to attending the LG School.  Though that experience would of course have given the soldiers some familiarity with the weapon, its deployment and strength and weaknesses, whether that influenced his selection we don't know.

SS143 suggested the platoon Lewis gun should be used for covering or suppressing fire by the assaulting troops.  Further development of this tactic meant by Third Ypres in the autumn of 1917 and into 1918 their tactical use had evolved and they were regarded as 'pillbox busters'.  Together with mortars and rifle grenades the Lewis gun team was used effectively to attack and neutralise the enemy strongpoints.  Eventually and certainly by 1918 the gun was also used as a man portable weapon, fired from the hip in close range offensive operations, e.g. trench clearing.

In spite of the initial reservations expressed when the weapon was introduced by the time Pte Pickering attended the LG School the sheer numbers that had been produced and issued together with the evolving platoon tactics on the Western Front meant it had become a very effective weapon. Its deadly effect was recognised by the Germans who sought to capture and re-chamber as many of them as they could to use against their former owners. 

Oh and yes, the LLT is a very reliable and trustworthy source especially as a starting point for further study.

 

[jdhamlyn]

Hello kenf,

Thank you for all the information. I apologise but after searching some more I had another short question, would he have had (or at least qualified for) the LG badge I saw mentioned on this thread? I promise this is my last question of the thread, thank you for answering all my queries.

 Regards

James

 

Edited 29 March by jdhamlyn

[kenf48]

2 hours ago, jdhamlyn said:

I promise this is my last question of the thread, thank you for answering all my queries.

There are more erudite and knowledgeable members contributing to your earlier cited thread above.

I only have a passing knowledge of badges and uniforms and commenting on them usually gets me into trouble.  The only observation I have and again this is the British experience is that skill at arms badges had to be earned, whether this would be after attending a two week course I don't know.