Trench Map of Ypres from website- PPLI possibly

[David_Blanchard]

I am interested in where this trench map comes from. It is from this website:

http://100thanniversaryblog.blogspot.com/2016/06/sanctuary-wood-june-2nd-1916.html

 

The copy isn’t great and I would like to access the map in higher definition. I have a hunch it is from the the regimental history of Princess Patricia’s Light Infantry. I have the history from archive.org but it doesn’t include the maps which I think are in the original history.

 

I am particularly interested in the location of Cumberland Dugouts which can just about be made out on the map (just south of Point 3 on the map) I have  yet to find a trench map of these dugouts marked, which was a reserve position held by the Canadian infantry during the battle of Mount Sorrel.

If anyone has a copy of PPLI regimental history I would appreciate a scan or any trench maps that include Cumberland Dugouts. 

David 

 

 

 

Edited 22 March by David_Blanchard

[LDT006]

Map location is approx. 28.I.24.d  ?? (not 28.L.24..)

Trenchmapper might have the map you need.

Luc.

[mebu]

Could the map originate in 3rd Can Divn records? PPLI may have taken it from there.

Peter

[WhiteStarLine]

15 hours ago, David_Blanchard said:

this trench map

Hi David, I don't think this is a trench map but a superbly drawn map done by a cartographer, showing Canadian positions from division to brigade to battalion to illustrate the action.  There is a scale, but no grid.  The trenches are scant but the flow of the front line is incredibly detailed.  The handwriting for lanes, strong points, streets etc is the same for units and boundaries.  Only some of the strong points are shown.  The legend shows it as map 5 from Chapter 3, typical of an Official History or similar.

Luckily for us, TrenchMapper has map m_78_000292, showing Canadian Corps Approximate Evening 5th June, 1:10,000 with Confidential Cyclostyled Enemy Line.  It correlates with Warrington, Borders and Lovers and I think we can interpolate Cumberland Dugouts using Vigo Street to be in the vicinity of NW corner of Hill 62 (Sanctuary Wood) Canadian Memorial.

Take a look at Karen's map.  Running from top left down, we can see Sanctuary Wood, SP 17, Border Lane, Durham Lane and finish at SP 11 below Observatory Ridge road.

Now look at map m_78_000292.   Running from top left down, we can see Border Lane, Maple Copse, Durham Lane SP 11 below Observatory Ridge road.  Border Lane flows in Lover's Lane and intersects Warrington Avenue, so we correlate with the unit war diary account.  Durham Lane runs into Vigo Street, which is common to both maps.  I suspect Cumberland Dugouts are in the vicinity of the NG in EVENING and the t in Vigo St.

Cheers, Bill

[MaureenE]

The map is definitely from the Regimental History. Apart from your map of interest, No.3, all the other maps are in the digital edition

https://archive.org/details/princesspatricia01hodd/page/n7/mode/2up

Maureen

[brianmorris547]

I know from reading the 1916 WDs of the RE that 20 Div were in the area in June 1916. This page is from the WD of 20 Div HQ GS and confirms 3 Canadian Div.

TNA/Ancestry WO 95/2095.

I wonder if there is any further information in the 14 Corps WDs. I could not find any sketches or maps in the 20 Div WDs.

Brian

 

 

Edited 23 March by brianmorris547

[Bob Davies]

There is a mention of Cumberland Dugouts on this web site.

https://sites.google.com/site/frimleyandcamberley/lest-we-forget-my-family-s-military-memorial/a-list-of-the-men-including-military-details/a-list-of-the-men-by-surname-j-l

Scroll down until you find Edward George Ledger 1874 - 1916;

From the page;

Killed In Action on the 22nd of May 1916, aged 41 years.

The 9th Infantry Brigade war diary recorded;

"Heavy enemy shelling of SANCTUARY WOOD, VIGO ST, CUMBERLAND DUGOUTS, and other points in C. T's. Direct hit on VIGO ST dressing station causing 10 casualties. Concentrated retaliation on rear of BIRDCAGE, effective. Rain Wind light N.W. Casualties to Noon O. K - W 1 O.R. K 2 W 12."

Known to be buried at Maple Copse Cemetery, West-Vlaanderen, Belgium.

Regards, Bob.

 

[David_Blanchard]

Thanks all for your replies to this thread. I have just discovered that TNA have the diaries of the Canadian Corps with Mount Sorrel battle maps ( the LAC Canadian Corps diaries have been scanned in black and white and are not as good) 

 

The map from the PPLI in colour has been used by Stephen Newman in his history of the PPLI which he acknowledges comes from the ‘offical history’ of the PPLI which he has scanned into his book in black and white and you can clearly see the position of the Cumberland Dugouts. 
 

David 

Edited 24 March by David_Blanchard

[David_Blanchard]

On a separate issue as I am in process of researching casualty evacuation of the Canadian Army in early 1916, including the battle of Mount Sorrel I am attempting to plot the position of Medical Facilities and other points of reference. I have not really found many useful Canadian maps that show these positions and indeed if the RAPs in Sanctuary Wood were all used by the 3rd Canadian Division in March to June 1916 ( at least one was).

 

The 3rd Canadian Division took over the area from the 50th Division in March 1916 and I guess would have inherited the RAPs ( they certainly used the the aid post and ADS in Maple Copse) there is a map from the ADMS of the 50th Division which shows the RAPs and other medical facilities in this area.

 

Another position escapes me that of Canny Hill just north of Mount Sorrel that is mentioned in the war diaries of the Canadians and was there in early 1915. Francis Buckley of the 7th Northumberland Fusiliers mentions Canny Hill in his book ‘ Q6a and Other Places’ https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/25528

I guess that the trenches of Canny Hill were so named by the Geordies of the 50 Div. Again I have yet to discover Canny Hill on a trench map. 

Another point of interest looking at the position of the southern RAP in Sanctuary Wood on the map below- I wonder how close this is to the trenches in Hill 60 Trench Museum?

 

David 

Edited 24 March by David_Blanchard

[Bob Davies]

Thanks for sharing your finds for Cumberland Dugouts @David_Blanchard.

'Canny Hill' has a mention on this site;http://www.shiny7.uk/7Coy1916-2.html

The following is copy and paste courtesy of the said website found from an old post on the GWF.

I cannot ever remember seeing Canny Hill on any map, so far.

There is a mention in this book page 32.https://archive.org/details/seventhnorthumberlandfus/page/31/mode/2up?q=canny

Regards, Bob.

1-29 February 1916

Throughout Feb the distribution of the Coy remained the same, viz - No2 Section in advanced billets in Zillebeke. 2 Sections in back billets. Reliefs of Sections in Zillebeke beginning on 8 Feb, 22 Feb - During this period 2 Bdes were in the line, 1 bde in reserve, consequently the Coy was affiliated to the 3 Bdes in turn in the following order:- viz - 151 Bde, 149 Bde,150 Bde. The Bde area worked by the Coy remained the same viz - trenches A5-B7 inclusive-this Sector being subdivided into left and right sub Sections: 1 and 3 Sections in turn worked the left Sector, 3 and 4 the right:- Late in Jan as result of Divisional conferences it was decided that it was of first importance to make the high ground comprised of trenches A5 - A12 into an independent fortified zone ie. a zone that could be held even if trenches left and right of it were occupied by the enemy. This fortified zone was termed 'CANNY HILL'. A great deal of work was projected the main features being           
(a) Construction of good support line ( viz - reclaiming position of old mined support line + digging 200yds of new S.L)
(b) Opening up of ruins, important communication trenches viz - SACKVILLE ST, TORR TOP, CRAD CRAWL, ST PETERS ST.
(c) construction of really good dugouts for numerous machine guns

Edit here;

Screen shot from a book and courtesy of internet archive https://archive.org/details/recollectionsofg0000buck/page/32/mode/2up?q=canny

Edited 24 March by Bob Davies

[WhiteStarLine]

20 hours ago, David_Blanchard said:

The map from the PPLI in colour has been used by Stephen Newman in his history of the PPLI which he acknowledges comes from the ‘offical history’ of the PPLI which he has scanned into his book in black and white and you can clearly see the position of the Cumberland Dugouts. 

David, any chance of a flat screen of this one?  Cheers, Bill

[David_Blanchard]

Hi Bill and Bob,

 

Thanks for the replies. My scanner is not working at present. I hope this is a better scan.

 

David 

[WhiteStarLine]

David, if you get your scanner working, we can get a really good fit.  This one is not bad considering the edge distortion.  It suggests the dugouts were halfway down the western corner of Hill 62 (Sanctuary Wood) Canadian Memorial, just a little south of my prediction yesterday:

[David_Blanchard]

Bill,

brilliant. Where do you think the two RAPs in Sanctuary Wood were? One must be close to the Trench Museum at Hill 62.  
 

If we could get hold of an original copy of the History PPLI it would contain the map I sent in my last post. Sadly the copy of PPLI history archive.org does not have the map. 
 

I think the southern most RAP is where I have applied red dots on google maps- just outside the boundary of the trench museum. What do you think? 
 

David 
 

 

Edited 25 March by David_Blanchard

[Bob Davies]

I am quite sure that the first map you posted is the one that is missing from the Internet Archive book David.

I am putting it here so I can have a chance at getting a better resolution of it.

I'll be back later.

[David_Blanchard]

Bob,

that’s the one. I have asked @Borden Battery for help with finding an original copy.

 

David 

[Bob Davies]

2 minutes ago, David_Blanchard said:

Bob,

that’s the one. I have asked @Borden Battery for help with finding an original copy.

 

David 

Unfortunatly I cannot get it to do anything. It must be something to do with how they have set it up.

Usually one can sharpen them up using 'Picasa'.

Bob.

[David_Blanchard]

A guy in Ottawa has been doing some research for me and from one of the documents concerned with the medical facilities of the Canadian 3rd Division from May 1916 it looks as though one of the Regimental Aid Posts was in the ‘preserved’ trenches of Hill 62. 
 

SANCTUARY WOOD I.24.b.2.0

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 27 March by David_Blanchard

[David_Blanchard]

Another map showing the trenches occupied by Canadians before and during Mount Sorrel from the FortyNiners Regimental Magazine of the 49th Canadian Infantry Battalion from 1954. 
 

David