Robert Davison RFA

[Trish22c]

Hi Everyone

I'm researching my Grandad (Walter Harding Davison, see other thread) and his brothers in WW1 in various regiments.

Robert (Bertie) Davison was born in Sunderland on 8th October 1884 and died on the 6th February 1924. He was disabled due to WW1. His wife Barbara nee Nixon died in 1918, and due to his injury's his children were split up. His son (named after my Grandad) Walter Harding Davison born 1905 went to live in my Grandads family home with his Nana and Granda. (Robert Davison the Mariner also mentioned in other thread)

Ive attached the information i have on Robert, and would be really grateful if you could give me any more information on his regiment, where he fought and even perhaps what happened to him.

 

Thanks

Trish

 

Edited 21 March by Trish22c

[Matlock1418]

14 hours ago, Trish22c said:

Sorry can't help with his service but just wanted to highlight for your attention some of the pension details

• 13/9 pw to 14-10-17 = the 50% disability rate for a pension Class V soldier / Gnr under the 1917 Royal Warrant [this level of disability matches the later/first entry on the rear of the pension ledger page]
• From Treatment [somewhat hidden under the strike-through]

This Treatment refers to the MoP section dealing with men recieving/is indicative of him receiving medical treatment for one or more of his claimed disabilities from the MoP - as seen on the pension ledger page - Neurasthenia [sometimes/commonly known as "Shell Shock"] and Bronchitis

Treatment could be as an in-patient and/or as an out-patient and the differing types of treatment did potentially affect the pension paid to him and for his family - I would usually initially suspect potentially the in-patient scenario being more likely [This is not definitive and the 50% level of award makes me less certain as once an in-patient a man was normally considered 100% disabled so far as employment/pension was concerned - of course the records we can see above are only a fraction of those used to administer the award(s)].

Of the two conditions I might also initially suspect that Neurasthenia as the more likely since, as far as I know, although they did offer and record Treatment for respiratory disease it was most usually for Pulmonary Tuberculosis [Phthisis] and not for Bronchitis. [This is not definitive and again the 50% level of award makes me less certain - however by 1918 Phthisis was normally rated at 100%, so as to avoid a sufferer seeking employment and potentially spreading the disease into the wider community].

Awards [degrees and quanta] would be for his overall level of disability and not for individual conditions.

We must also remember that a pension was intended to make up the difference between what a disabled man might reasonable be expected to earn and what a non-disabled man might be reasonably expected to get from employment.

Of course his condition could have varied and as we can see his main awards file was deliberately destroyed and the fine detail during his claim has largely been lost

You may definitively know the the cause and place of his death from his DC so his repiratory problems might perhaps have been the latter since it was so common in the Nation's population [???] or ???

This appears his death registration Deaths Mar 1924   (J, F, M qtr)  Davison Robert 39 Sunderland 10a 899 - digital image available from GRO for £2.50 at present.

But the MoP appear to have tried to offer him some treatment [something which is certainly much less commonly shown on other such PIC].

14 hours ago, Trish22c said:

The 1919 Royal Warrant pension quanta for 1921 onwards on this pension ledger page [rear] do certainly indicate only a pension for the man and his children [no wife being paid for]

= If you could please evaluate my thoughts, especially on the PIC, and offer details on his health, cause & place of death etc. it would be really useful to help me 'calibrate' my interpretation of things - I would be most grateful to you.

M

Edited 22 March by Matlock1418
add death registration

[David Porter]

Robert's number of 95999 was issued at No. 1 Depot RFA, Newcastle-on-Tyne around August 29, 1914. His arrival in France is May 12, 1915 which would place him in either 51st Brigade RFA, 52nd Brigade RFA or 9th Divisional Ammunition Column.

[Trish22c]

2 minutes ago, David Porter said:

Robert's number of 95999 was issued at No. 1 Depot RFA, Newcastle-on-Tyne around August 29, 1914. His arrival in France is May 12, 1915 which would place him in either 51st Brigade RFA, 52nd Brigade RFA or 9th Divisional Ammunition Column.

Thank you, what regiment is the RFA? Royal Field Artillery? 

[Trish22c]

1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said:

Sorry can't help with his service but just wanted to highlight for your attention some of the pension details

• 13/9 pw to 14-10-17 = the 50% disability rate for a pension Class V soldier / Gnr under the 1917 Royal Warrant [this level of disability matches the later/first entry on the rear of the pension ledger page]
• From Treatment [somewhat hidden under the strike-through]

This Treatment refers to the MoP section dealing with men recieving/is indicative of him receiving medical treatment for one or more of his claimed disabilities from the MoP - as seen on the pension ledger page - Neurasthenia [sometimes/commonly known as "Shell Shock"] and Bronchitis

Treatment could be as an in-patient and/or as an out-patient and the differing types of treatment did potentially affect the pension paid to him and for his family - I would usually initially suspect potentially the in-patient scenario being more likely [This is not definitive and the 50% level of award makes me less certain as once an in-patient a man was normally considered 100% disabled so far as employment/pension was concerned - of course the records we can see above are only a fraction of those used to administer the award(s)].

Of the two conditions I might also initially suspect that Neurasthenia as the more likely since, as far as I know, although they did offer and record Treatment for respiratory disease it was most usually for Pulmonary Tuberculosis [Phthisis] and not for Bronchitis. [This is not definitive and again the 50% level of award makes me less certain - however by 1918 Phthisis was normally rated at 100%, so as to avoid a sufferer seeking employment and potentially spreading the disease into the wider community].

Awards [degrees and quanta] would be for his overall level of disability and not for individual conditions.

We must also remember that a pension was intended to make up the difference between what a disabled man might reasonable be expected to earn and what a non-disabled man might be reasonably expected to get from employment.

Of course his condition could have varied and as we can see his main awards file was deliberately destroyed and the fine detail during his claim has largely been lost

You may definitively know the the cause and place of his death from his DC so his repiratory problems might perhaps have been the latter since it was so common in the Nation's population [???] or ???

This appears his death registration Deaths Mar 1924   (J, F, M qtr)  Davison Robert 39 Sunderland 10a 899 - digital image available from GRO for £2.50 at present.

But the MoP appear to have tried to offer him some treatment [something which is certainly much less commonly shown on other such PIC].

The 1919 Royal Warrant pension quanta for 1921 onwards on this pension ledger page [rear] do certainly indicate only a pension for the man and his children [no wife being paid for]

= If you could please evaluate my thoughts, especially on the PIC, and offer details on his health, cause & place of death etc. it would be really useful to help me 'calibrate' my interpretation of things - I would be most grateful to you.

M

I don't have cause or place of death, but I'll get that at the weekend from the GRO website. 

Thanks 😊

[Matlock1418]

Trish,

Revisiting his pension records I have spotted a few other things of interest to me and I hope to you & other members too:

19 hours ago, Trish22c said:

2/MD/1691/T - I believe the T confirming the Treatment

26.10.23 Final Award - MoP seems to have thought his condition was stabilised and given the ordinary practice of not making Final Awards when further treatment was required it must be presumed that his treatment had ceased and was considered no longer required.

19 hours ago, Trish22c said:

But, returning to this ... I will admit I don't know what FDTAC 27.11.23 means - the date seems potentially linked to/post the Final Award but the status is marked as C [Conditional and not F/Final]

I have had a few guesses at this FDTAC acronym using: Final/Family's/Families'/Dependant's/Dependants'/Disability/Disabilities/Treatment/Treatments/Tribunal/Award/Awards/Centre/Committee/Cases, but can't get confirmation of any of them = ???

= Would be pleased to learn what FDTAC stands for.  Anyone???

19 hours ago, Trish22c said:

His 1924 death, following his 1917 discharge, was close to the normal seven year limit for a claim [Under normal terms for a pension and provided his death was not caused by the man's own serious negligence or misconduct].

I am wondering if this Barbara Jane DAVISON is his mother or his similarly-named and unmarried older sister as Guardian of a child(ren) ??? 

= I hope you can clarify for members. [Edit: I note from the 1911 Census that his mother appears dead by then, so I presume it must be his sister]

The card only definitely indicates a claim and not necessarily an award.

Any award would have been as a 'Motherless child' [at 12/- pw for a single child in a household, and 11/- pw for a second child and subsequent children in the same household].

The DEAD 15/4/30 rather suggests there was an award and that a child(ren) resident in the household had either by then reached 16 and lost an entitlement or had died and that the claim had become dead by then.  Given Walter Harding Davison was born 1905 it would seem impossible for it to be him being claimed for, but seemingly a younger child instead. From GRO options I'm going to hazard DAVISON, ROBERT    NIXON  GRO Reference: 1913  S Quarter in SUNDERLAND  Volume 10A  Page 1518, as being most likely

5 hours ago, Trish22c said:

I don't have cause or place of death, but I'll get that at the weekend from the GRO website. 

= That will be interesting to see.

BTW: RFA indeed does = Royal Field Artillery

M

Edited 22 March by Matlock1418
Edit

[David26]

Trish,

identifying individual soldiers who served in the Royal Field Artillery is notoriously difficult since so many of the surviving records simply say "RFA" without giving further details.  David Porter has pointed you the way for the units Bertie may have served in when he first went overseas.  The war diaries for them are here - available for free to download from the National Archives if you register an account with them, otherwise each will cost £3.50 to download: 

51 Brigade Royal Field Artillery | The National Archives

52 Brigade Royal Field Artillery | The National Archives 

Divisional Ammunition Column | The National Archives

Ordinary soldiers are almost never mentioned in these, but they would give a flavour as to where Bertie may have gone, at least initially.

Unfortunately, it was the habit of the RFA to occasionally break up units or merge them with other ones so following where an individual may have gone is very hard if their service record has not survived.  Also, when a man was sick or wounded such that he was evacuated away from the Front, he rarely returned to the same battery or brigade after he had recovered - he was sent to whichever RFA brigade was next in line for reinforcements.

One document you do not appear to have is his entry on the Silver War Badge register which is here (image courtesy of Ancestry and the National Archives):

It shows that he enlisted on 28 August 1914 and was assigned to 5C Reserve Bde when he was discharged on 29 September 1917.  5C Reserve Bde was based at Charlton Park, Woolwich at that time.  As well as a place where soldiers being readied for return to units overseas, it was also used as an administrative unit to look after men currently undergoing treatment in the UK, so he may not have been physically located at Woolwich, he may have been in hospital.

It also shows that he was discharged due to shell shock and awarded a Silver War Badge (which will have been stamped with the one up number 131,567) due to paragraph 2 (a) (i) of Army Order 265 of 1917 - image of this copied below courtesy of the National Archives.

David.

 

[Trish22c]

3 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Trish,

Revisiting his pension records I have spotted a few other things of interest to me and I hope to you & other members too:

2/MD/1691/T - I believe the T confirming the Treatment

26.10.23 Final Award - MoP seems to have thought his condition was stabilised and given the ordinary practice of not making Final Awards when further treatment was required it must be presumed that his treatment had ceased and was considered no longer required.

But, returning to this ... I will admit I don't know what FDTAC 27.11.23 means - the date seems potentially linked to/post the Final Award but the status is marked as C [Conditional and not F/Final]

I have had a few guesses at this FDTAC acronym using: Final/Family's/Families'/Dependant's/Dependants'/Disability/Disabilities/Treatment/Treatments/Tribunal/Award/Awards/Centre/Committee/Cases, but can't get confirmation of any of them = ???

= Would be pleased to learn what FDTAC stands for.  Anyone???

His 1924 death, following his 1917 discharge, was close to the normal seven year limit for a claim [Under normal terms for a pension and provided his death was not caused by the man's own serious negligence or misconduct].

I am wondering if this Barbara Jane DAVISON is his mother or his similarly-named and unmarried older sister as Guardian of a child(ren) ??? 

= I hope you can clarify for members. [Edit: I note from the 1911 Census that his mother appears dead by then, so I presume it must be his sister]

The card only definitely indicates a claim and not necessarily an award.

Any award would have been as a 'Motherless child' [at 12/- pw for a single child in a household, and 11/- pw for a second child and subsequent children in the same household].

The DEAD 15/4/30 rather suggests there was an award and that a child(ren) resident in the household had either by then reached 16 and lost an entitlement or had died and that the claim had become dead by then.  Given Walter Harding Davison was born 1905 it would seem impossible for it to be him being claimed for, but seemingly a younger child instead. From GRO options I'm going to hazard DAVISON, ROBERT    NIXON  GRO Reference: 1913  S Quarter in SUNDERLAND  Volume 10A  Page 1518, as being most likely

= That will be interesting to see.

BTW: RFA indeed does = Royal Field Artillery

M

Hi Barbara Jane was his daughter, she was named after her mother who passed away in 1918. I'm going to order his death cert, hopefully it's on GRO, if not I'll have to get next month as just ordered 3 full ones from the Council for other family members. I initially said I'd only order them for direct lines.. But that hasn't happened. 😏

This site is amazing, and you have all been so helpful as I have no clue about Military which is where my family tree has sent me. So thank you. 

[Trish22c]

50 minutes ago, David26 said:

Trish,

identifying individual soldiers who served in the Royal Field Artillery is notoriously difficult since so many of the surviving records simply say "RFA" without giving further details.  David Porter has pointed you the way for the units Bertie may have served in when he first went overseas.  The war diaries for them are here - available for free to download from the National Archives if you register an account with them, otherwise each will cost £3.50 to download: 

51 Brigade Royal Field Artillery | The National Archives

52 Brigade Royal Field Artillery | The National Archives 

Divisional Ammunition Column | The National Archives

Ordinary soldiers are almost never mentioned in these, but they would give a flavour as to where Bertie may have gone, at least initially.

Unfortunately, it was the habit of the RFA to occasionally break up units or merge them with other ones so following where an individual may have gone is very hard if their service record has not survived.  Also, when a man was sick or wounded such that he was evacuated away from the Front, he rarely returned to the same battery or brigade after he had recovered - he was sent to whichever RFA brigade was next in line for reinforcements.

One document you do not appear to have is his entry on the Silver War Badge register which is here (image courtesy of Ancestry and the National Archives):

It shows that he enlisted on 28 August 1914 and was assigned to 5C Reserve Bde when he was discharged on 29 September 1917.  5C Reserve Bde was based at Charlton Park, Woolwich at that time.  As well as a place where soldiers being readied for return to units overseas, it was also used as an administrative unit to look after men currently undergoing treatment in the UK, so he may not have been physically located at Woolwich, he may have been in hospital.

It also shows that he was discharged due to shell shock and awarded a Silver War Badge (which will have been stamped with the one up number 131,567) due to paragraph 2 (a) (i) of Army Order 265 of 1917 - image of this copied below courtesy of the National Archives.

David.

 

Wow, thank you so much!!! 

[Trish22c]

Is there a charity I can make a donation to on behalf of you all. I know I can donate to the site if preferred. I'd like to do something for your fabulous help. (And patience) 

Edited 22 March by Trish22c

[Matlock1418]

8 minutes ago, Trish22c said:

Hi Barbara Jane was his daughter, she was named after her mother who passed away in 1918.

Hadn't considered that there might be other Barbara Janes

When was she born?

And who did she go to live with?

The Guardian would usually be named and not the child.

DEAD would usually be recorded within a year of the end of the claim

M

[Trish22c]

2 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Hadn't considered that there might be other Barbara Janes

When was she born?

And who did she go to live with?

The Guardian would usually be named and not the child.

DEAD would usually be recorded within a year of the end of the claim

M

She was 3yrs 8 months on the 1911 census above, so by 1924 she will have been at least 16/17 if my maths is correct, so she may have been listed as his guardian. I haven't found where she went to live unfortunately, but it's on my humongous list of research 😬

[Matlock1418]

21 minutes ago, Trish22c said:

She was 3yrs 8 months on the 1911 census above, so by 1924 she will have been at least 16/17 if my maths is correct, so she may have been listed as his guardian.

I had got confused  - should have read the censuses better.

Yes, his daughter, Barbara Jane, would be c. 16/17 in 1924 and possibly Guardian to her brother, Robert , jnr = aged 7y 11m on the 1921 Census [b. 1913], c.11 in 1924 and c.16 in 1929 - that would fit with an annotation of DEAD [claim] in 1930

That would fit but doesn't match you earlier saying the children were split up because of Roberty snr's disability - you may need to check that - or perhaps they were and then thus reunited??  Genealogy is not my main forte and you are likely to know your family much, much better than me!!!

But I'm looking forward to seeing Robert snr's DC to compare with his pension record.

38 minutes ago, Trish22c said:

Is there a charity I can make a donation to on behalf of you all. I know I can donate to the site if preferred. I'd like to do something for your fabulous help. (And patience) 

Thank you.

The GWF administrators would clearly like you to support GWF but there are plenty of pukka military charities to help commemorate a man like your relative - past veterans and near recent/future = Royal British Legion, Blind Veterans UK, and Veterans Mental Health Charity/Combat Stress to name but three - the last seems particularly appropriate for commemorating a man who suffered from Neurasthenia/Shell Shock [Of course I may now have got myself into trouble with the administrators!]  Maybe you can contribute to both GWF and a charity(ies) of your choice.

M

[Trish22c]

Here is a copy of his certificate, i managed to get a digital copy. bit hard to read. I couldn't wait until tomorrow to get it

Edited 22 March by Trish22c

[Matlock1418]

5 minutes ago, Trish22c said:

Here is a copy of his certificate, i managed to get a digital copy. bit hard to read.

Thank you.

I am not a medic but think the conditions are:

1) ??????? Endocarditis [which is a heart condition I believe]

2) Hypostatic pneumonia [a lung condition - I did web search it too and it seems as chronic condition that can affect the bedridden - I wonder if considered related to his bronchitis??]

Neither seem to me to be immediately like his disability claim conditions, though the pneumonia seems nearest to bronchitis, so I wonder if a pension claim for his death was actually successful or not [Especially as there is only that one dependant's PIC] ???

Our member @Dai Bach y Sowldiwr may care to offer his medical professional opinion on these conditions - Please, over to you Dai.

M

[Trish22c]

1 minute ago, Matlock1418 said:

Thank you.

I am not a medic but think the conditions are:

1) ??????? Endocarditis [which is a heart condition I believe]

2) Hypostatic pneumonia [a lung condition - I did web search it too and it seems as chronic condition that can affect the bedridden - I wonder if considered related to his bronchitis??]

Neither seem to me to be immediately like his disability claim conditions, though the pneumonia seems nearest to bronchitis, so I wonder if a pension claim for his death was actually successful or not [Especially as there is only that one dependant's PIC] ???

Our member @Dai Bach y Sowldiwr may care to offer his medical professional opinion on these conditions - Please, over to you Dai.

M

I have also asked for more info on the first one as i cant read it. Hopefully they'll get back to me soon.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

5 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

1) ??????? Endocarditis [which is a heart condition I believe]

2) Hypostatic pneumonia

1) Chronic (Long Standing) Endocarditis,( as compared to Acute or subacute i.e recent duration.

2) Hypostatic meaning it occurs as a result of gravity - fluid, like infected sputum gravitates downwards and blocks the small airways, so in a recumbent patient the pneumonia occurs in the basal segments of the lungs.

[Trish22c]

13 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

1) Chronic (Long Standing) Endocarditis,( as compared to Acute or subacute i.e recent duration.

2) Hypostatic meaning it occurs as a result of gravity - fluid, like infected sputum gravitates downwards and blocks the small airways, so in a recumbent patient the pneumonia occurs in the basal segments of the lungs.

Just had to google number 1. Endocarditis is a life-threatening inflammation of the inner lining of the heart's chambers and valves. This lining is called the endocardium.

Edited 22 March by Trish22c

[RobertBr]

51 & 52  Brigades RFA were originally part of the 9th Scottish Division. However the 52 Brigade became a Army Field Brigade (AFA) , I suspect in the artillery re-organisation of 1916. This is likely to mean its harder to trace its history.

Bob

[Trish22c]

Thanks for all the replies everyone. Due to his illness i can rule him out of being that Soldier in my other post for my grandad. He will have been too ill by the sounds of it. But you've provided me with a load of amazing info. Now onto Brother Davison number 3 haha (there's a lot of Military in my ancestry due to the two WW )

Edited 22 March by Trish22c

[Trish22c]

8 minutes ago, RobertBr said:

51 & 52  Brigades RFA were originally part of the 9th Scottish Division. However the 52 Brigade became a Army Field Brigade (AFA) , I suspect in the artillery re-organisation of 1916. This is likely to mean its harder to trace its history.

Bob

Thank you Bob

[Matlock1418]

20 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Chronic

Thanks Dai - I did wonder, but of course couldn't see it until you repeated it. 

Might the pneumonia pair with bronchitis for a pension claim?  Or too much of a stretch for the MoP in your medical opinion?

M

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said:

Might the pneumonia pair with bronchitis for a pension claim?  Or too much of a stretch for the MoP in your medical opinion?

Someone with pre-existing bronchitis would be more likely to get respitatory infections like pneumonia, but probably 20% or more of the population would have died of pneumonia, even with no pre-existing morbidity. So yes if you were a relative, it would be worth a punt, but if the pneumonia was a terminal event only then I think the MOP wouldn't entertain the claim.

[Matlock1418]

On 22/03/2024 at 19:09, Trish22c said:

Returning quickly to his death entry.

I do not think the Royal Hospital, Sunderland, had a mental section [That was at Cherry Knowle, Ryhope, I think] so he seems to have avoided the potential horrors of, and dying in, an asyslum in 1924.  And suicide is not indicated so he could not be held at fault.

Interesting that he is described as an Army Pensioner when we have earlier seen Final Award on his penion records

None of those observations however help with determing if his family subsequently got a pension post-death, so ???

On 22/03/2024 at 21:23, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Someone with pre-existing bronchitis would be more likely to get respitatory infections like pneumonia, but probably 20% or more of the population would have died of pneumonia, even with no pre-existing morbidity. So yes if you were a relative, it would be worth a punt, but if the pneumonia was a terminal event only then I think the MOP wouldn't entertain the claim.

Yes, pretty much as I had come to think - a disability claim for a number of years but then potentially questionable later for his child. ???

M