Records for pte Alfred Ball 2nd Manchester Bat service #57745

[Shelagh Hetherington]

I’m researching my father’s ww1 records. He signed up with an alias - Arthur belmore - can’t find where he signed up - I think he was in prison from  Dec 1915 - 1917. His full name is Alfred john ball from London. I found his repatriated info on the irc records -which only have his name/regiment and service number and that he had a gsw. I’d like to know where he signed on (was it from prison) and where/when he was taken as a Pow and what happened post service? Where did he go? Thank you for reading.

[Matlock1418]

9 hours ago, Shelagh Hetherington said:

He signed up with an alias - Arthur belmore

Welcome to GWF.

You have clearly also seen his disability claim pension index card at WFA/Fold3 under this alias. as 57745.

9 hours ago, Shelagh Hetherington said:

Alfred john ball from London

Did you also see the other one as 57745 under his true name?  Again an unspecified disability.

The 7-4-20 indicates when he was discharged from the Manchester Regiment.

Awarded 24/- pw from 8-4-20 to 12-10-20 [this quantum was the 60% degree of disability rate for a pension Class V soldier / Pte (without an entitlement for wife and/or any children)]

The card is also annotated RFA [Royal Field Artillery] but no number - if correct, that would likely be an earlier unit that you need to look out for - his BALL BWM & VM MIC does not show it so it would seem likely that only a H/S UK posting [perhaps before he was posted to the M/cr Regt. ??]

I believe member @8055Bell would be a be a good one to help with the M/Cr Regt.

All the best,

M

Edited 21 March by Matlock1418
typo

[George Rayner]

Welcome to the forum Shelagh and good luck with your research.

George

[George Rayner]

Do you have a birthdate for him? Or an address which may help the research?

George

[Matlock1418]

2 hours ago, George Rayner said:

Do you have a birthdate for him? Or an address which may help the research?

Shelagh,

Hope you can help with these.

What address for NoK is given on his PoW records?  Can you offer an ICRC link(s)? Or image(s)?

I think George may be thinking of looking at the 1921 Census which will need both of those to aid

I might also suggest looking at the Absent Voters Lists of 1918 and 1919 and an address will help

M

Edit: ICRC = Repatriation as BALL, 57745 - no address https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/List/938124/699/52671

Edited 21 March by Matlock1418
edit

[Matlock1418]

3 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

7-4-20 indicates when he was discharged from the Manchester Regiment.

I'm now wondering, because of apparent post-war service, if perhaps a retained Service Record at MoD/TNA ??? - a date of birth would help searching/for an application

M

Edited 21 March by Matlock1418

[PRC]

When he turns up in the weekly casualty list as released from imprisonment in Germany, (page 4, Weekly Casualty List dated 4th February 1919), his next of kin is recorded as living at Hoxton, North London. https://deriv.nls.uk/dcn30/1941/7467/194174675.30.jpg

(Towards the top of the right hand column).

But not readily spotting reports of his capture. The indexing of the International Committe of the Red Cross on FindMyPast shows that as the sole entry for 57745 Manchester Regiment.

For completeness the Repatriation Report says he was 2nd Battalion.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 21 March by PRC
Add FMP

[Shelagh Hetherington]

Thank you so much for reading and your research. Alfred john ball’s info as evidenced via legal documents. His bd is 10 Apr 1899 - last known documented address ww1 is his dad’s ww1 enlistment record May 1914, 4 westmoreland place Hoxton. He has a police conviction sheet listing his criminality from 1912 - 1941. And used 6 different alias, the earliest being Arthur belmore! As stated he was sent to industrial school july 1915 with 2 years detention as he broke his probation - the information is: 2 years detention in a borstal institution to be computed from 21 Dec 1915. 

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, Shelagh Hetherington said:

As stated he was sent to industrial school july 1915 with 2 years detention as he broke his probation - the information is: 2 years detention in a borstal institution to be computed from 21 Dec 1915. 

I believe it is possible that such boy might have been offered a way out of borstal if they joined the armed forces.

= Looking for information before his propsed/expected release date should not be ruled out.

I wonder if there is any further milage at looking at/for the RFA [as mentioned on the pension record]??

1 hour ago, Shelagh Hetherington said:

His bd is 10 Apr 1899

There are no AJ BALL, MR, and although there are two AJ BALL, RA, on the known MoD-retained SR list, I'm not seeing any AJ BALL with that birth [can't confirm the accuracy of the listed DoB] - however the publicly-available list is also known to be incomplete.

M

Edited 21 March by Matlock1418
additions

[PRC]

1 hour ago, Shelagh Hetherington said:

Alfred john ball’s info as evidenced via legal documents. His bd is 10 Apr 1899 - last known documented address ww1 is his dad’s ww1 enlistment record May 1914, 4 westmoreland place Hoxton. He has a police conviction sheet listing his criminality from 1912 - 1941. And used 6 different alias, the earliest being Arthur belmore! As stated he was sent to industrial school july 1915 with 2 years detention as he broke his probation - the information is: 2 years detention in a borstal institution to be computed from 21 Dec 1915. 

The Medal Index Card for 57745 Alfred Ball, (no alias or other names listed), shows he qualified for the Victory Medal and British War Medal (VM & BWM). This combination of medals means he did not serve in a Theatre of War until some point on or after the 1st January 1916.

And a quick look at the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, (CWGC), website, cross-referenced to Soldiers Died in the Great War, (SDGW) an HMSO publication from the 1920’s, and the Medal Index Card, (MiC), information shows the following for men with nearby numbers.

57729 Private John Morris, died serving with the 12th Battalion on the 4th November 1918, aged 22 years. Son of Richard and Ann Robertson Morris, of 1, Kildonan St., Coatbridge. Buried France. (CWGC). Killed in Action, formerly 49445 East Lancashire Regiment. (SDGW). Ex 4948 Gordon Highlanders. (MiC). No obvious surviving service records.

57737 Serjeant Joseph James McNelly died serving with the 20th Battalion on the 6th November 1918, aged 37. Husband of Emily McNelly, of 25, Brigham St., Openshaw, Manchester. No known grave and is remembered on the Vis-en-Artois Memorial. (CWGC). Killed in Action, formerly 12133 Lancashire Fusiliers (SDGW). Ex 12133 Lancashire Fusiliers (MiC). No obvious surviving service records.

57753 Private J.W. Hampshire died serving with the 20th Battalion on the 25th October 1918, aged 22. Son of Albert and Christiana Hampshire, of 8, Westfield St., Westfield Rd., Leeds. Buried France. (CWGC). John William Hampshire. Killed in Action, no previous unit information. (SDGW). VM & BWM only. (MiC). No obvious surviving service records.

57756 Private R.A. Randall died serving with the 20th Battalion on the 30th October 1918, aged 20. Son of Mary Randall, of 4, Bickerton Rd., Wadsley Bridge, Sheffield. Buried France. (CWGC). Robert Arthur Randall, died of wounds. Formerly 77941 West Yorkshire Regiment. (SDGW). No obvious surviving service records.

So either a lucky cohort or more likely a draft posted from a home service service unit late summer 1918 and redirected to the Manchester Regiment on arrival in France.

Given that 57737, 57753 and 57756 all died serving with the 20th Battalion, the reference to Alfred Ball serving with the 2nd Battalion on his repatriation report should be treated with caution. And if this group did arrive in France late summer \ early autumn 1918 then limited time period in which Alfred would have been captured. Would also explain why his capture might not pop up in the Official Casualty List.

A more in-depth search for men with nearby service numbers who have surviving records might establish a clearer picture of how this group came together and ended up serving in France with the Manchester Regiment. Hopefully that in turn will start to firm up when Alfred was conscripted – at the moment there is no evidence for him serving before his two years of probation were up – or that he served as Belmore.

Criminal convictions would have precluded him from serving, a not uncommon reason for the use of aliases. If he went to prison under the surname Ball and joined straight from prison, then difficult to see where Belmore would have crept.  Similarly if his sentence was commuted on condition that he serve in the military. And by 1917/18 very limited circumstances in which an individual could volunteer – those men resident in England, Wales and Scotland were already deemed conscripted and then had to be exempted on a case by case basis, either temporarily on permanently.

With the introduction of conscription the army had to tighten up on enforcing the pre-existing rules that soldiers under 19 would not serve in a Theatre of War. This rule was relaxed slightly in the wake of the tremendous losses suffered in the wake of the German Spring Offensive of 1918, but was back in force later in the summer. Either way, being aged 19 in April 1918, if his medical condition was graded high enough for front line service overseas, I would have expected him to have gone them. If he potentially didn't go out until later in the summer then perhaps health was an issue. Ever since 1916 the British Army had been lowering the medical standard for frontline service and "re-evaluating", (i.e. ignoring), conditions that previously would have barred a man from front line service.

BTW – who was the Dad who enlisted pre-war in May 1914? Would seem unusual for a man wiith a 15 year old son.

Cheers,
Peter

[RussT]

Just a quick look at SDGW as per above with 577xx numbers shows men served with a variety of former Regiments - and split between 12th and 20th Bn MR when they died (1 with 1/5th Bn).

There are a few SRs that seem to indicate these men were transferred at either H or E IBD mid October 1918.

His previous criminal convictions might be relevant - 55733 was released from detention and sent to H IBD where he was transferred to the ELR but then almost immediately the MR.

It would be worthwhile exploring more service records perhaps extending it to at least 556xx and 558xx.

Russ

 

 

[Matlock1418]

36 minutes ago, PRC said:

If he went to prison under the surname Ball and joined straight from prison, then difficult to see where Belmore would have crept. 

From the original/first pension record it looks like Alfred John BALL was his initial true name [with the Army and MoP] and then the pension records have been later annotated with Alias: Arthur BELMORE

So it seems quite possible/probable that BELMORE is unlikely as a wartime service name.

M

Edit: For those who cannot see the initial PIC with its Manchester and RFA units and his BELMORE alias.

Image thanks to WFA/Fold3

The DEAD refers to the claim [and not necessarily the man]

Edited 21 March by Matlock1418
edit

[corisande]

Ancestry have his "record"

and with ref to 1915, his sentence is not connected to the Borstal , but a further conviction for stealing watches. He appears to have gone to Pentonville Prison on 21 Dec to start a 2 year sentence

Edited 21 March by corisande

[Shelagh Hetherington]

3 hours ago, PRC said:

The Medal Index Card for 57745 Alfred Ball, (no alias or other names listed), shows he qualified for the Victory Medal and British War Medal (VM & BWM). This combination of medals means he did not serve in a Theatre of War until some point on or after the 1st January 1916.

And a quick look at the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, (CWGC), website, cross-referenced to Soldiers Died in the Great War, (SDGW) an HMSO publication from the 1920’s, and the Medal Index Card, (MiC), information shows the following for men with nearby numbers.

57729 Private John Morris, died serving with the 12th Battalion on the 4th November 1918, aged 22 years. Son of Richard and Ann Robertson Morris, of 1, Kildonan St., Coatbridge. Buried France. (CWGC). Killed in Action, formerly 49445 East Lancashire Regiment. (SDGW). Ex 4948 Gordon Highlanders. (MiC). No obvious surviving service records.

57737 Serjeant Joseph James McNelly died serving with the 20th Battalion on the 6th November 1918, aged 37. Husband of Emily McNelly, of 25, Brigham St., Openshaw, Manchester. No known grave and is remembered on the Vis-en-Artois Memorial. (CWGC). Killed in Action, formerly 12133 Lancashire Fusiliers (SDGW). Ex 12133 Lancashire Fusiliers (MiC). No obvious surviving service records.

57753 Private J.W. Hampshire died serving with the 20th Battalion on the 25th October 1918, aged 22. Son of Albert and Christiana Hampshire, of 8, Westfield St., Westfield Rd., Leeds. Buried France. (CWGC). John William Hampshire. Killed in Action, no previous unit information. (SDGW). VM & BWM only. (MiC). No obvious surviving service records.

57756 Private R.A. Randall died serving with the 20th Battalion on the 30th October 1918, aged 20. Son of Mary Randall, of 4, Bickerton Rd., Wadsley Bridge, Sheffield. Buried France. (CWGC). Robert Arthur Randall, died of wounds. Formerly 77941 West Yorkshire Regiment. (SDGW). No obvious surviving service records.

So either a lucky cohort or more likely a draft posted from a home service service unit late summer 1918 and redirected to the Manchester Regiment on arrival in France.

Given that 57737, 57753 and 57756 all died serving with the 20th Battalion, the reference to Alfred Ball serving with the 2nd Battalion on his repatriation report should be treated with caution. And if this group did arrive in France late summer \ early autumn 1918 then limited time period in which Alfred would have been captured. Would also explain why his capture might not pop up in the Official Casualty List.

A more in-depth search for men with nearby service numbers who have surviving records might establish a clearer picture of how this group came together and ended up serving in France with the Manchester Regiment. Hopefully that in turn will start to firm up when Alfred was conscripted – at the moment there is no evidence for him serving before his two years of probation were up – or that he served as Belmore.

Criminal convictions would have precluded him from serving, a not uncommon reason for the use of aliases. If he went to prison under the surname Ball and joined straight from prison, then difficult to see where Belmore would have crept.  Similarly if his sentence was commuted on condition that he serve in the military. And by 1917/18 very limited circumstances in which an individual could volunteer – those men resident in England, Wales and Scotland were already deemed conscripted and then had to be exempted on a case by case basis, either temporarily on permanently.

With the introduction of conscription the army had to tighten up on enforcing the pre-existing rules that soldiers under 19 would not serve in a Theatre of War. This rule was relaxed slightly in the wake of the tremendous losses suffered in the wake of the German Spring Offensive of 1918, but was back in force later in the summer. Either way, being aged 19 in April 1918, if his medical condition was graded high enough for front line service overseas, I would have expected him to have gone them. If he potentially didn't go out until later in the summer then perhaps health was an issue. Ever since 1916 the British Army had been lowering the medical standard for frontline service and "re-evaluating", (i.e. ignoring), conditions that previously would have barred a man from front line service.

BTW – who was the Dad who enlisted pre-war in May 1914? Would seem unusual for a man wiith a 15 year old son.

Cheers,
Peter

 

[Shelagh Hetherington]

oops, tried to respond to peter, just re copied his post! I haven't worked out how to respond to a particular posting. Please bear with me.

 

Peter, thank you for your indepth research.  The father: Alfred [Charles] Ball,  dob 20/1/1878, Enlisted to the Army Reserve (Special Reservists) 6 years service 24 May 1914. He was found to be unfit for service 82 days later, 13/11/1914. His service No: 86095, Royal Horse and Royal Field Artillery, Finsbury Barracks. He had 5 children at the time of his enlistment.

[Shelagh Hetherington]

 

Matlock1418

He was signed up and given the service No: 57745 under the name Arthur Belmore with Alfred John Ball as the alias - the record wasn't corrected at the time of enlistment? From Ancestry WW1 Pension ledger card. Sorry don't know how to attached said card for reference.

[George Rayner]

One card lists Belmore as the alias...

the other Ball as the alias.

George

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, Shelagh Hetherington said:

He was signed up and given the service No: 57745 under the name Arthur Belmore with Alfred John Ball as the alias - the record wasn't corrected at the time of enlistment? From Ancestry WW1 Pension ledger card. Sorry don't know how to attached said card for reference.

Are you thinking about this PIC? 

Image thanks to WFA/Fold3

Having looked at many thousands of pension cards and studied pensions considerably, I think the other PIC posted earlier above is much more likely of the initial situation [not least as it has his initial pension award details] - the one here is, in my opinion, a supplementary PIC used for cross-referencing purposes [it would be in most cases anyway - and I currently continue to believe it is in this case]

Or another??

Or have you any other evidence he enlisted/served as BELMORE??

MIC as BALL, 57745

PoW also as BALL also makes this scenario of serving as BALL more believable [as to change identity whilst in captivity could potentially really muck things up for the man].

= I don't mind being proved wrong [as every day on GWF can be a school day and I'm willing to learn!]

M

Edited 21 March by Matlock1418
typo

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, Shelagh Hetherington said:

Sorry don't know how to attached said card for reference.

Shelagh,

As I am a WFA member you could probably add the pension address as a link and I should see it [but many others won't be able to see it]

Alternatively snip/copy and save an image and add that image to GWF that way - That's what I have done for the two PIC I have posted above.

M

Edited 21 March by Matlock1418

[Shelagh Hetherington]

Thank you Matlock 1418. I’ll give that a trial run. Also thank you to all the other contributors - there’s quiet a lot to get on with in the meantime - bit of an evasive rascal was my dad…

[Matlock1418]

1 minute ago, Shelagh Hetherington said:

bit of an evasive rascal was my dad…

An old adage in the military - A moving target is harder to hit! 

Good luck

M

[charlie2]

Not much help but no other Manchester Regt soldiers with a 577?? number were taken PoW, only 15 20th Bn men were taken PoW during the war. 
Charlie

 

[Shelagh Hetherington]

Thank you Matlock 1418. I’ll give that a trial run. Also thank you to all the other contributors - there’s quiet a lot to get on with in the meantime - bit of an evasive rascal was my dad…

[Shelagh Hetherington]

Charlie 2

thank you for this list. He is a mystery - I’m going to read through 1918 home service regiments and battles taking place in the long long trail, to see where he could have been in England and France, taking into account other members suggestions regards service numbers and pre enlistment records, prisons etc.  I feel a long long research road ahead. 

[PRC]

Manchester Regimental service number 57733 was allocated at ‘H’ IBD on the 15th October 1918, although that individual, (Albert Pritchard), was then posted to the 9th Battalion.

The War Diary for the 20th Battalion has a summary of re-inforcement received at the end of the October 1918 section. For other ranks this amounted to:-

10.10.18 – 105
17.10.18 – 21
21.10.18 – 2
24.10.18 – 11
24.10.18 – 123
25.10.18 – 97
30.10.18 – 9

Other Rank casualties for the month:-
Killed in Action – 78
Wounded – 223
Missing – 27
Sick (Evacuated) – 60

On the 20th, (ambushed patrols, officer wounded), 23rd, (attacking troops advanced further than anticipated, became involved in fighting in the hedgerows and orchard – “the enemy being very strong in the hedges facing west” – 3 Officers KiA, 2 wounded), 24th & 25th, (patrols took fire), there were scenarios in which OR's could have been lost as prisoners.

The 20th Battalion would also see action November 1918 but the summary of Other Ranks casualties for the month has no one recorded as Missing.

My hard drives are getting a bit too full to download the 2nd Battalion War Diary, (I already had the 20th!), but if someone would like to check their war diary for the equivalent period it would be interesting to know whether it shows the arrival of drafts and the possibilities of losing men as prisoners.

Cheers,
Peter