MIC help with interpretation of a medal stamp and two service nos

[davew]

Hello All,

I would be grateful for advice on MIC for Pte Percival Arthur Simms, 2/6th Royal Warwickshire Regiment, please. I downloaded the MIC entry from NA today and am confused by the following (highlighted yellow):

Percival having two service nos - 200261 and 1943. I wonder if this is due to 2/6th Bn The Royal Warwick Regiment being Reservists who were subsequently deployed with 182 Brigade / 61th Division and assigned new service numbers, perhaps?

Victory medal awarded, though not in Percival's lifetime and probably never issued, unless his son (Percival George Simms) requested them. L/104, I understand from this forum, is The Royal Warwickshire Regiment, L being the regional recording office and 104 being R.WAR.R. I had initially read the following characters as B3c but now think that is is B30 - does anyone know what this refers to, please?

T.P.WAR.R.WAR.R.TFMI, I have no idea what this means, other than the middle, "R.WAR.R" being, "Royal Warwickshire Regiment" and - possibly - TFMI being Territorial Force XX XX? Might it mean that Percival was awarded the Territorial medal?

There is no theatre or war first served in or date of entry therein, I don't know why but understand from NA (this morning) that 2/3 of WWI records were lost to bombing during WWII and that the record attached might have been recorded some time after WWI.

Percival was killed on 20th March 1918 (aged 21) at the Somme and is commemorated at the Thiepval Memorial. War diary for 2/6th The Royal Warwickshire Regiment lists only one death on that day, with 4 injured, during a raid by A and C Coy (attached snippet from NA, also downloaded today). I assumed that the only recorded death that day must be Percival but CWGC lists 8 deaths in The Royal Warwickshire Regiment that day, six from 2/6th Bn so I am, again, confused and would be most grateful for any advice on all of these points of confusion.

Many thanks,

Dave.

 

[RussT]

Welcome to the Forum.

He has 2 numbers because he was in the TF and they were Renumbered in 1917. Read all about it on the LLT.

The line with lots of numbers and letters is simply the reference to the Medal Roll and page number.

The last bit tells you he was also entitled to the TF War Medal.

No date is given as he deployed after 1915 so was not entitled to either the 1914 or 1914/1915 Star Medal.

Regards

Russ

[TEW]

It may not look like it from the MIC but he was also entitled to the British War Medal.

In the absence of any further remarks or references I'd say both medals were sent out to his NOK or legatee. Normally a parent or spouse.

The Warwick office would previously have dealt with a death plaque and scroll so should have had someone on file for that.

Not seen the Soldier's Effects entry for him which should note the legatee.

TEW

[Keith_history_buff]

9 hours ago, davew said:

Hello All,

I would be grateful for advice on MIC for Pte Percival Arthur Simms, 2/6th Royal Warwickshire Regiment, please. I downloaded the MIC entry from NA today and am confused by the following (highlighted yellow):

Victory medal awarded, though not in Percival's lifetime and probably never issued, unless his son (Percival George Simms) requested them. L/104, I understand from this forum, is The Royal Warwickshire Regiment, L being the regional recording office and 104 being R.WAR.R. I had initially read the following characters as B3c but now think that is is B30 - does anyone know what this refers to, please?

Many thanks,

Dave.

In new money, archive reference WO 329/755 is the specific medal roll on which he is recorded.

The original reference is L/1/104 B30 and this is on the medal index card, as well as indicating that he appears on page 6395 of that roll.

Below are the catalogue details for the roll, which generally contain the same details as the medal index card, but each page will relate to several men.

Reference:	WO 329/755
Description:	Royal Warwickshire Regiment other ranks: medal rolls L/1/104B29; L/1/104B30. Pages 6141-6447. British War Medal and Victory Medal.

 

His infantry regiment, and several others, were covered by the Warwick (L) Regional Office

Given that he did not arrive in a theatre of war prior to 1 January 1916 but met the criteria for the Territorial Force War Medal, his card has been stamped to document this entitlement.

 

Image of the British War Medal & Victory Medal roll courtesy Ancestry

[Keith_history_buff]

Award Criteria

They had to:^[2]

• have been serving with the Force on 4 August 1914; or
• have completed four years service with the Force before 4 August 1914 and rejoined on or before 30 September 1914.

In addition provided they:

• undertook, either verbally or by written agreement on or before 30 September 1914 to serve outside the United Kingdom, such agreement being operative after 4 August 1914, and
• have served outside the United Kingdom between 5 August 1914 and 11 November 1918 (both dates inclusive; the last date was in 1918 though the years on the reverse said 1914-19) and
• did not qualify for the 1914 Star or 1914-15 Star.

A total of 33,944 Territorial Force War Medals were awarded.^[3] 

 

Those first two points are of interest. You would need a Warwickshire Regiment subject matter expert to indicate when the number of 1943 was issued. The following would suggest it was issued in 1913
https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2020/10/royal-warwickshire-regiment-5th-6th-bns.html

[Keith_history_buff]

In 1917, soldiers who had enlisted under Territorial Force terms of service were renumbered

This article will tell you more

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/renumbering-of-the-territorial-force-in-1917/

The following table informs us that he was renumbered whilst he was in the 5th Battalion

 

[Keith_history_buff]

Image of Territorial Force War Medal roll courtesy Ancestry
 

[Matlock1418]

9 hours ago, TEW said:

In the absence of any further remarks or references I'd say both medals were sent out to his NOK or legatee. Normally a parent or spouse.

The Warwick office would previously have dealt with a death plaque and scroll so should have had someone on file for that.

Not seen the Soldier's Effects entry for him which should note the legatee.

Would be worth looking at his Register of Soldiers' Effects entry [e.g. at Ancestry - I can't access] for interest and to see if a Legatee(s) was named, but ...

As he is commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial to the missing I would hazard a guess that his body was never found and thus his pay book with its integral Will page was not recovered with any Legatee(s) named.

I don't know his marital status but I would think it would have likely to have simply said - "In the event of my death I leave all my money and effects to xxx xxx", or something similar, and been signed [I agree according to his circumstances that his Parent(s) or Widow would be the most likely NoK and to to be so named as Legatee(s)].

Having done a quick search there does not seem to be a Will lodged at the E&W Probate Office so a Legatee(s) does not seem likely to have been identified and so not likely to be defined on the RoSE ???

Still, would likely be of interest to see the RoSE entry.

M

Edited 20 March by Matlock1418

[TEW]

Soldiers' Effects shows his widow Louisa was the sole legatee.

More than likely the Warwick office had been in contact with her from the time of his death to the issue of death plaque & scroll. Any property of his in France would be returned to Louisa by the effects branch who would also state that any medals that may be due to him could be sent to her.

Nothing to suggest she did not receive the medals.

TEW

[Matlock1418]

1 minute ago, TEW said:

Soldiers' Effects shows his widow Louisa was the sole legatee.

If so, one might wonder how that [unsurprising Widow's] Legatee status was determined?

Might it perhaps suggest that his body was found, a Will recovered, and then his body subsequently 'lost' [physically or possibly buried under an 'Unknown British Soldier' headstone]??

... Very unlike me to not earlier look for any potential Dependant's pension award - His widow, Louisa SIMMS, 35 Inge St, Birmingham, [sightly different from CWGC] claimed for herself and two children, on 12.8.18

The pension index card actually records Date & Cause of Death: 30.3/3.4.18 [which is a bit different from CWGC] and Presumed Dead - so clearly he had been 'Missing' for some time.

CWGC commemoration https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/1552910/percival-arthur-simms

M

[Matlock1418]

ICRC PoW records [indexed as SIM / recorded as SIMMS] at https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/4606126/3/2 - these do rather look more like enquiries

I am not a german-speaker - Both records record Feldlazarett = Field Hospital ??

M

Edited 20 March by Matlock1418
indexing

[TEW]

M,

I've recently been gleaning correspondence from service files that have matching reference detail as shown on MICs or Soldiers' Effects.

Firstly, I was under the impression that a soldier's will would be left behind during a planned attack and not on him for obvious reasons.

I recently contributed to a post where the Legatee for Soldiers' Effects also claimed the medals but had to return the medals as another brother was deemed to have a legitimate claim to them. By what means I don't know.

I have another where a soldier died intestate with no known family. A friend and former work colleague wrote in and said that 'X said I could have all his worldly goods if he died'.

They issued medals to the friend.

I've seen mention of unofficial wills, two conflicting wills and wills that were not accepted by the WO. However, in the event of no will being found then surely the wife is automatically the Legatee?

A soldier may name his NOK who may not be the legal beneficiary.

I need to collate some of the above correspondance but had plans to produce something with it.

TEW

 

[Keith_history_buff]

11 hours ago, davew said:

Hello All,

I would be grateful for advice on MIC for Pte Percival Arthur Simms, 2/6th Royal Warwickshire Regiment, please. I downloaded the MIC entry from NA today and am confused by the following (highlighted yellow):

[snip]

There is no theatre or war first served in or date of entry therein, I don't know why but understand from NA (this morning) that 2/3 of WWI records were lost to bombing during WWII and that the record attached might have been recorded some time after WWI.

[snip]

Many thanks,

Dave.

 

Given that he did not qualify for either the 1914-15 Star or 1914 Star, there was no need for this field on the card to be completed by the clerk in December 1920 when the BWM & VM roll was completed. (The medal roll has a date stamp of 16 December 1920, but this did not come out in the screenshot.) At this time, his service record had yet to be transferred to Arnside Street, which would be destroyed 20 years later in the fire.

The LLT is always worth referring to, when researching a soldier and seeking clear guidance

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/campaign-medal-records/the-campaign-medal-index-cards/

[Matlock1418]

10 hours ago, TEW said:

I was under the impression that a soldier's will would be left behind during a planned attack and not on him for obvious reasons.

Wills do not seem a standard part of a soldier's retained Service Record.

I understand that recovering a Soldier's Book / Pay Book from a casualty was a standard part of identification [along with recovery of an identity disc, one of two in 1918 - the round/red one] and if a Will had been left behind/separated from it then it would potentially be logistically hard to get reunited with the soldier if he survived an action [and repeatedly]. And we do not fully know the circumstances leading up to SIMMS death.   

I agree the situation does seem rather fraught with total loss of all if a man's body was completely lost/physically no more/not recovered at an early stage, e.g. if destroyed by a shell or incidentally and/or unintentionally completely buried etc. and I have previously wondered about it quite a lot.

What I do know for certain is, from a book in my possession, that an unmarried relative who survived several actions in 1918 had his very simple Soldier's Will to his parents written in it - and it had not been detatched in any way. He had also repeated his Will in his Soldier's Own Diary - clearly making his intentions known was very important to him [Edit: Perhaps the diary was with his large pack during actions, but possibly more likely with him when more generally in the line and most probably when out of it??].

It may be that other arrangements had also been made by SIMMS.

10 hours ago, TEW said:

I've seen mention of unofficial wills, two conflicting wills and wills that were not accepted by the WO. However, in the event of no will being found then surely the wife is automatically the Legatee?

I'm not a lawyer but such things can seem quite 'obvious' and then get messy if there were conflicting claims - how they sorted them out I cannot be sure.

M

Edited 20 March by Matlock1418
typos

[Matlock1418]

Dave, I forgot ... a belated Welcome to GWF from me.

Back to what I do know more about for SIMMS, his widow's pension claim:

Image thanks to WFA/Fold3

Much is probably self-explanatory but a few interpretations for you and to help avoid mis-interpretations:

Of course, there was this sad aftermath - his widow,  Louisa, made an initial claim for a war pension for herself and for a pension allowance(s) for two children under the prevailing Royal Warrant, which in this case would initially have been the 1918 RW - Article 11 [widow] and Article 12 [child(ren)].  There are Pension Index Cards and a pension ledger page at the Western Front Association/Fold3 [unfortunately a rather less commonly visited source of info] - this is probably the most informative pension index card,

This pension index card was in the soldier’s name and there was another briefer card in the widow’s name so they could be cross-referenced/accessed.  These came from/lead to a ledger page(s) via the claim case references and then to an awards file - the later ledger page is available and has interesting annotations, however the awards file probably deliberately destroyed once its use was passed [as was the common case]

The original Case No. 2839 claim reference was later largely replaced by a later Ministry of Pensions one of 6/W/2337 [from PLP] - the 6 representing pension region 6 [West Midlands Region]

Form 104-88 received: 26.7.18 = Death notification of a married man sent from the man’s Record Office to the War Office.

Date of notification of death: 2.5.18 = It is rather unclear as to whom this notification was being made but one might think it is likely to his widow

Form 104-76 received: 12.8.18 = Declaration made by the Widow of a Soldier in support of claim to pension for herself and children

Date of birth: 31.9.95 = his widow’s - required because her pension could be age-related/supplemented if she was >45 [which she obviously was not]. Such an age banding of pension is believed to address the less likely possibility of re-marriage with increasing age.

The standard pension plus allowances initially paid to his widow was 25/5 per week from 2.12.18 [there usually was an approx. six-month gap between death and paying of a pension  to allow six months for any presumption of death and for calculation] - in the meantime standard Separation Allowances continued to be paid – so, unlike what many observers think when they first see such a card, there was not a complete absence of monies in the intervening period]. 

1918 RW paid 13/9 pw for a widow <45y plus increments of 6/8 [80d], 5/- [60d] for the children The rounded figures in pence for the children make you wonder if those figures really were the cost of raising a child(ren) or if they just made things simpler for the pension clerks [I suspect the latter]

The child(ren)'s allowance(s) were paid to their mother, typically until they reached 16 when such payments ceased [occasionally up to 21 if they were in some form of further vocational training or sometimes if they had impairment/disability] - then the child(ren) would certainly be expected to go out to work to earn their keep. Or paid until the earlier death of a child. Hence their recorded dates.  But also see below.

She could have got a grant to cover urgent expenses arising from her husband's death - often for mourning dress [though not worn much at that time of the war], sometimes for moving home [typically downsizing as she would no longer be expected to keep a home in the same level of comfort as her husband might have expected had he returned!] - commonly used for local newspaper death notice inserts [these quite often had a photo = so a good place to search, e.g at British Newspaper Archive or through Find my Past] ... however where this sort of entry was normally made by "Remarks" we can see some erasing, rather suggesting reference to this matter had been erased = ???

S.A. means Separation Allowance - A portion of a soldier's pay which was matched by the government and sent to his dependants to make sure they were not left destitute while he was on active service.  SA were often slightly more generous than pensions and children’s allowances because a wife had to maintain a home in the same level of comfort as before ready for her husband’s return whilst a widow did not have such a need and costs – after all, apparently, she could then cut back and down-size her home!  Typically, the No. for whom SA is paid on the card reflected the number of children – as we can see here

50F = Form 50F used to cease the Separation Allowance and start the pension.

C2 Cas List = appears to indicate his missing status or presumed death had been published on a Casualty List(s) [I cannot access such a Cas. List(s) but you and/or other members may be able to]

I think the MM 2521 and WCA 2756 were possibly a certificate identity numbers to allow for the collection of the pension and allowances from a Post Office - but I am rather more cautious about that.

DEAD,1932 = indicates the claim became dead eventually - likely because her youngest child reached 16.  This raises the question had his widow remarried [and lost her pension in favour of a one-off remarriage gratuity/bounty] or had she died by then? ... We can see at CWGC that his widow remarried [becoming Mrs DANIELS] at which point her pension would have ceased and she would have got a one-off lump-sum re-marriage gratuity/bounty [one years' worth of pension].  The children's allowances would normally continue to be paid to her.  That said in 1923/24 [so likely after her re-marriage given the CWGC generally had confirmed NoK details a couple of years earlier] there were PLP annotations indicating that Family pension be administered in Trust by C.A.O. Birmingham, and then later that they were to be issued direct to widow

The printer's marks at the bottom show the printing dates [1/18] and a large number [batch of 10,000] of these index cards sadly required to be used to help manually administer pensions using ledgers and files [by a small army of pension clerks, most of them female - No computers in those days!].

• Images of other PIC and PL available by subscription at the Western Front Association https://www.westernfrontassociation.com [highly recommended since for relatively low cost membership the WFA site offers good insight into pensions and pension records and it offers so much more as well!] and/or by subscription to Fold3.

I hope of interest/value to you.

M

Edited 20 March by Matlock1418
typos

[TEW]

Quote

C2 Cas List = appears to indicate his missing status or presumed death had been published on a Casualty List(s) [I cannot access such a Cas. List(s) but you and/or other members may be able to]

Yes, C2 Casualties was the WO department that received the initial information regarding deaths, wounded, missing & POWs. They then informed each record office. It might be a copy of an actual list or it may just be a telegram that says he was on list No. X.

TEW

[Matlock1418]

15 hours ago, davew said:

Victory medal awarded, though not in Percival's lifetime and probably never issued, unless his son (Percival George Simms) requested them.

The line under the BWM entry on the MIC is a 'Ditto' referring to the same Medal Roll ... So he will have [posthumously] been awarded his 'Mutt & Jeff ' / 'Pair' c.1920 [so a bit early for his young son to have applied for them]

Medals would have been automatically despatched by Registered Post to his NoK ... and as has been said above there is no indication that they had been returned as "Not delivered".

Who got the medals and/or later had them and who has them now are other matters. [As you have a clear interest in them, if they have survived, I hope you/somebody is their current careful custodian]

M

2 hours ago, TEW said:

C2 Casualties was the WO department that received the initial information regarding deaths, wounded, missing & POWs. They then informed each record office. It might be a copy of an actual list or it may just be a telegram that says he was on list No. X.

Thanks for your clarification.

M

Edited 20 March by Matlock1418
typo

[davew]

Thank you All so much for your generous help and all the information above - I am most grateful.

I had no idea that much of these details were recorded, far less where to look for them and how to correlate details and events. In the past few hours, I have gone from believing that Percival was killed 106 years ago today, to thinking now that he was not killed outright but survived long enough to be taken as a PoW in a German field hospital, though that makes me wonder what then happened to him, since he was never found. I had taken details recorded at Thiepval as being gospel but, of course, if Percival was believed dead on 20th March by the Army and was never found, it is reasonable that this was reported as 'best guess' at his date of death. I'm mindful now that codifying information from different sources, over relatively long time periods and uncertainties arising in the case of a missing person can all introduce inaccuracies that need to be cross referenced, if at all possible. Being completely new to this, it's a steep but fascinating learning curve - thank you all for helping me on my journey.

Many thanks,

Dave.
 

[Matlock1418]

8 minutes ago, davew said:

but survived long enough to be taken as a PoW in a German field hospital

Unless you are a german-speaker [and I am not!!] please be careful of such conclusions for now.

I will make a mention of @charlie2 since they should be able to better read the german in the ICRC PoW records.

Then we will see more clearly.

M

[Keith_history_buff]

On the basis that he is 1. missing with an unknown grave, thus is commemorated at Thiepval and 2. does not appear on a list of men who died in captivity (totenliste?), I do not subscribe to the idea that he was a prisoner. 

There has been a similar question about nachlassliste

 

[charlie2]

16 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

I will make a mention of @charlie2 since they should be able to better read the german in the ICRC PoW records.

I‘m afraid there is nothing concusive in the records. They just record that his paybook was transferred to the ZNB by a Feldlazarett, how it came into the possession of the Lazarett is not recorded. Was he dead on arrival? Were the dead‘s effects collected from the battlefield and handed into to the Lazarett? Is it possible that he died there and was technically a PoW? In the absence of any further documentation and the lack of information given, I also suspect the first two options are more likely but who knows.

Charlie

[Matlock1418]

5 hours ago, charlie2 said:

I‘m afraid there is nothing concusive in the records. They just record that his paybook was transferred to the ZNB by a Feldlazarett, how it came into the possession of the Lazarett is not recorded. Was he dead on arrival? Were the dead‘s effects collected from the battlefield and handed into to the Lazarett? Is it possible that he died there and was technically a PoW? In the absence of any further documentation and the lack of information given, I also suspect the first two options are more likely but who knows.

Thanks Charlie - even with my lack of german language I thought things were looking rather inconclusive [i.e. didn't look like the records of men who were/are known to have been PoW].

M

Edited 20 March by Matlock1418
another typo!