Gnr Peter Spamer 2nd Bty RFA. 2nd Ypres

[Flying Dragoon]

Gunner Peter Gerard Spamer Regt No. 1962 was my Great Grandfather and was killed on 24th May1915 during the second battle of Ypres. His records from CWGC show him with the 2nd Battery RFA which is nominated either Northumberland, West Riding or East Riding on three different cards. He was from Hull but was born in Sunderland.

His final resting place is the Ypres Extension Cemetery but the concentration card (says S.B. Spamer) mentions that he was exhumed from  map reference I.10.c.4.5.

Can anyone please shed any light on the map reference or indeed the area that 2 Bty were operating.

I have read records from the RFA commander up to the 15th April 1915 but he makes no reference to the battery

 

[WhiteStarLine]

Hi @Flying Dragoon and welcome to the forum.  His body was exhumed from near White Chateau (yellow central pin) and buried at the Ypres Cemetery Extension (top left corner).

Cheers, Bill

[kenf48]

The concentration report posted above shows 24 May 1918 which is an anomaly.

Interestingly if you look at https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/446437/w-cowell/ and his concentration report there are four more casualties brought in from the same location deaths also dated 1918.

It’s noted on the CWGC site that bodies were brought in to the Town Cemetery Extension from smaller cemeteries. I wonder if there was a CCS or similar at that location.

[WhiteStarLine]

2 hours ago, kenf48 said:

I wonder if there was a CCS or similar at that location

He was exhumed from White Chateau, so very plausible Ken.  It has been mentioned on the forum a few times such as operating as a May 1915 bearer post.

Looking at some nearby 1917 concentrations plus the underlining of White Chateau denoting an original IWCG cemetery or memorial, the chances are good that it was a known plot.

Cheers, Bill

 

[Flying Dragoon]

Many thanks Bill and Ken.

Is it possible, do you think, that due to the 2nd Ypres offensive ending the following day, that there was breathing space to inter bodies.

Prior to this there had been almost constant bombardment from very accurate German guns, not to mention the recent gas attacks.

I've noticed now that 2 Bty formed part of the Northumbrian Brigade so I'll see if I can read their war diaries.

[WhiteStarLine]

Sorry, I was completely thrown by the reference to 24 May 1918.  The COG BR shows a 19 JUN 1919 exhumation date by the GRU.  To put this in plain English, the first document you posted was a Concentration of Graves Burial Return, known to us all as COG BR.  This was completed by the Graves Registration Unit (GRU) who had the grisly task of digging up human remains and at least on one occasion, watched by grieving mothers.  They then buried him in the Ypres Communal Cemetery.

The full description of the person and the lack of artefacts used for identification suggests they knew exactly who they were looking for, perhaps using some early record suggesting an orderly series of burials.  Ken is wondering if this is due to the presence of some medical unit in the area and I agree.

The next document you cite shows that in 1923 they cross checked his details and reported him to be in plot 7 of No 1 area and ticked this off when they found a cross erected, presumably with name engraved or stencilled.

So, this is a long way of suggesting he was buried in May 1915 or some time after and lay undisturbed for 4 years.

Cheers, Bill

[kenf48]

The war diary for 251 Brigade RFA (1/2nd Northumbrian Field Artillery Brigade) 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/h/C14055680

May 1915 starts here on Ancestry  if you subscribe.

CWGC lists at least eight dead from the Northumbrian 2nd Brigade RFA on the 24th May most are commemorated on the Menin Gate

The batteries were heavily shelled on that day including gas. Diary location given at 'Potyze' wild guess given the usual mangling as Potijze

On the day the diary reports 1 Battery sent SOS signal "swept with fire from  I.6.d.97 to Roulers Railway and 2nd Battery from Roulers Railway to north edge of wood I 6.b.63"

It appears all 3 batteries were roughly in the same position over to you Bill @WhiteStarLine

Extract courtesy of Ancestry to allow for my transcription (the writing is atrocious as may be seen)

As an aside I haven't found it yet but 27th Division apparently had an ADS in a nearby Chateau but that is associated with the Chateau Cemetery  as Bill said there is som confusion as to which 'White Chateau' but a forum search brings up a couple of useful threads.

[Flying Dragoon]

This is the War Diary for the East Riding Battery which includes their original departure from Hull the previous year.

 

[Flying Dragoon]

The above states 1 killed, 10 wounded (of which one died twice), 2 gassed.

Thanks for you help in tracking this stuff down.

Is there any way to find out who the members of the battery were?

regards

[kenf48]

2 hours ago, Flying Dragoon said:

Is there any way to find out who the members of the battery were?

Laborious but the original members should be on the 14-15 Star Roll  you will need a spreadsheet!

Go to CWGC and cross reference those to the Medal Roll to confirm they all landed on the 20th April 1915 with Spamer and you may be getting close

The check any surviving service records as TF men it's a fair bet they will all be local The 2nd Brigade was raised in Hull Scarborough and Whitby 

(none of this is infallible)

The local records office may hold the records of the County Territorial Force Association but given your location that might be a bit of a trek.

FMP has the Royal Artillery attestations but I can't see your man listed.

You will need a subscription to access the Medal Roll

 

[Simon R]

Nominal rolls of a unit at the time of mobilisation may be found  in relevant newspapers. Depends on quality of the  newspaper, but it is a possibility.

I am familiar with this from batteries of 4th West Riding RFA (TF) in the local paper.

May sometimes be titled/reported as 'Rolls of Honour' or 'Serving with the Colours' etc.

[Flying Dragoon]

Are there no muster rolls or pay lists which can be accessed?

[Simon R]

Try the relevant regional archives. I recommend local newspapers via British Library Newspaper Archive, online.

[sadbrewer]

Not an answer to your question, but this piece may be of interest.. from the Hull Daily Mail, May 1917, courtesy of the British Newspaper archive. 

Edited 21 March by sadbrewer