francescoups Posted 17 March Share Posted 17 March Hello, I'm wondering if anyone could give any suggestions or help on finding more information about two of my relatives. I have used find my past and ancestry but struggling to find any more information. My Great Great Grandad Samuel Haskell (sometimes misspelled Haskall) is listed on the 1939 register as being a RFA Gunner on a disability pension with the number 7117 - however I'm not sure if some of this number has been cut off in the photograph. I think I have found the medal card for my Great Great Grandad on the other side - Samuel Wilson Bowman who is listed as serving with the RASC in France as a private with the number S3/022982 I'd be interested in knowing where to find out more information about them, where they served and possibly how Samuel Haskell was injured. Thank you so much for your time and expertise! Frances Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rayner Posted 17 March Share Posted 17 March I think his number may be 711760 looking at a reference in Fold3 George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rayner Posted 17 March Share Posted 17 March Have you tried looking in National Archives? It is free after you create an account and sign in. Very useful once you get your head around what to ask and where to look! If you get stuck loads of experience on the forum to help George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rayner Posted 17 March Share Posted 17 March Did Samuel reside at 14 India Street, Liverpool? That will clarify if 711760 is the correct man George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
francescoups Posted 17 March Author Share Posted 17 March Hello, yes that is Samuel! Thank you so much! I'm just really intrigued as to where they served and how he was injured as there are no family stories about it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 17 March Admin Share Posted 17 March It would make life a lot less complicated if you start a separate thread for Samuel Wilson Bowman, as this thread is starting to be centred on Samuel Haskell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David26 Posted 17 March Share Posted 17 March (edited) Frances, you have presumably found Samuel Haskell's Medal Index card showing his service number? Here it is courtesy of Ancestry and the National Archives: You will see he has a 4 digit service number initially and then a 6 digit one. For RFA men, 6 digit service numbers starting with 6, 7, 8 or 9 were assigned to members of Territorial Force units in the spring of 1917. Samuel Haskell's service number 711760 shows that he was serving with either 1st/3rd or 2nd/3rd East Lancashire Brigades. 1st/3rd was renamed 212 Brigade (later renumbered as 211 Brigade) and 2nd/3rd was renamed as 332 Brigade. You will see that his 'Theatre of War first served in' has been left blank which implies he did not qualify for the 1914-15 Star so did not go overseas before the end of 1915. For men serving in the RFA in the 1920s, their service numbers were changed again and a new 7 digit one was assigned, so given that he is quoting his old 6 digit number in the 1939 Register, that suggests to me that he did not stay on after the war. This is all confirmed by his Silver War Badge record (again courtesy of Ancestry and the National Archives) which shows that he was discharged on 16 April 1919 while serving in 15 Bde RFA due to wounds he had received and was deemed no longer fit for military service. You can download the war diaries for these brigades for free from the National Archives website (all you do to get free access is to register, otherwise they cost £3.50). Here is 211 Brigade's war diary for 1917-1919: 211 Brigade Royal Field Artillery | The National Archives And here is 332 brigade's war diary for Jan-Apr 1917 at which point the brigade was broken up and men sent to various other units: 332 Brigade Royal Field Artillery | The National Archives. Finally, here is 15 Brigade's war diary for April 1918 to March 1919: 15 Brigade Royal Field Artillery | The National Archives. Samuel is extremely unlikely to be mentioned in any of these but they would give you a flavour of what he may have been up to. David. Edited 17 March by David26 Adding acknowledgement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 17 March Share Posted 17 March (edited) 1 hour ago, francescoups said: My Great Great Grandad Samuel Haskell (sometimes misspelled Haskall) is listed on the 1939 register as being a RFA Gunner on a disability pension with the number 7117 - however I'm not sure if some of this number has been cut off in the photograph. Samuel Haskell, Gnr, 711760, RFA At WFA/Fold3 there is a pension index card and a pension ledger page. The PIC also shows another number 8221 - This is likely to be an earlier number [Edit as has just recently also been explained]. On neither record is there an indication of his disability but the PIC shows he was discharged 16.4.19 and awarded 27/6 pw from 17.4.19 to 4.5.19. Although that was the 100% disability rate for a pension class V Soldier / Gunner its short award perhaps suggests, often typically the case, just an initial temporary award whilst matters were more fully evaluated/calculated M Edited 17 March by Matlock1418 edit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
francescoups Posted 17 March Author Share Posted 17 March 32 minutes ago, Michelle Young said: It would make life a lot less complicated if you start a separate thread for Samuel Wilson Bowman, as this thread is starting to be centred on Samuel Haskell. Thank you so much! I will, I'm sorry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 17 March Share Posted 17 March (edited) 6 hours ago, francescoups said: I think I have found the medal card for my Great Great Grandad on the other side - Samuel Wilson Bowman who is listed as serving with the RASC in France as a private with the number S3/022982 S W BOWMAN, S3/022982, RASC Futher edit: MIC has only S .W. BOWMAN His 1914-15 Star MIC shows he was transferred to Cl Z [Class Z, Army Reserve ] The LLT https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/british-army-reserves-and-reservists indicates: Class Z Reserve ... This was authorised by an Army Order of 3 December 1918. There were fears that Germany would not accept the terms of any peace treaty, and therefore the British Government decided it would be wise to be able to quickly recall trained men in the eventuality of the resumption of hostilities. Soldiers who were being demobilised, particularly those who had agreed to serve “for the duration”, were at first posted to Class Z. They returned to civilian life but with an obligation to return if called upon. The Z Reserve was abolished on 31 March 1920. On transfer to the Z Reserve it was not incompatible/commonly was the case to make a disability pension claim on Army form Z.22 and get an award. Sydney/Sidney William BOWMAN, S3/022982, RASC WFA/Fold3 have two pension index cards showing this man claimed for a disability(ies) having been transferred 11.3.19 The disability(ies) he claimed is not indicated but he was initially awarded 11/9 pw from 12.3.19 to 9.3.20 Under the 1918 Royal Warrant that quantum was the 30% rate for a pension Class V soldier / Private - for himself and two unnamed children [8/3 + 2/- + 1/6 ... as was normal under that particular RW there was no award for a wife] = Does this family information help clarify if this man was your GGF? M Edit: Frances, I'm happy to move this post to a BOWMAN thread should one be created. Further edit: add middle name. Edited 17 March by Matlock1418 edit / further edit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rayner Posted 17 March Share Posted 17 March (edited) A family tree within Ancestry has linked Samuel Haskell to this soldier Name Samuel Haskell Age 19 Birth Year Abt 1881 Birth Place Liverpool, Lancashire Desertion Date 3 May 1900 Desertion Place Seaforth Publication Date 12 Jun 1900 Regimental Number 8221 Military Corps Lancs Artillery On first appearances things seem to tie them together-however I can't find definitive evidence. The service number 8221 is quoted on one of the Pension Cards though without attribution to a regiment. From Fold3 George Edited 17 March by George Rayner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 17 March Share Posted 17 March (edited) Samuel Haskell, Gnr, 711760, RFA 59 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said: The PIC also shows another number 8221 12 minutes ago, George Rayner said: The service number 8221 is quoted on one of the Pension Cards though without attribution to a regiment. Most typically, unless otherwise identified, such a number would usually be attributed to another named unit - on the PIC = RFA is the only unit recorded On the MIC 2218 is recorded for RFA [as is 711760] Hmm?? One wonders if it's a 'typo' ?? - not that it, or any other number, would have any impact on the award or administratrion of a pension as his last number, 711760, would take precedence for pension purposes. M Edited 17 March by Matlock1418 tweak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rayner Posted 17 March Share Posted 17 March I had considered that option 15 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said: One wonders if it's a 'typo' ?? and think it may well be a possibility. Should 2218 be 8221 or vice versa? George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David26 Posted 17 March Share Posted 17 March One thing I should have added was to tag our expert on the East Lancashire artillery, @brianmorris547 in case he has other insights to offer. David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
francescoups Posted 17 March Author Share Posted 17 March 3 hours ago, Matlock1418 said: Sydney/Sidney BOWMAN, S3/022982, RASC His 1914-15 Star MIC shows he was transferred to Cl Z [Class Z, Army Reserve ] The LLT https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/british-army-reserves-and-reservists indicates: Class Z Reserve ... This was authorised by an Army Order of 3 December 1918. There were fears that Germany would not accept the terms of any peace treaty, and therefore the British Government decided it would be wise to be able to quickly recall trained men in the eventuality of the resumption of hostilities. Soldiers who were being demobilised, particularly those who had agreed to serve “for the duration”, were at first posted to Class Z. They returned to civilian life but with an obligation to return if called upon. The Z Reserve was abolished on 31 March 1920. On transfer to the Z Reserve it was not incompatible/commonly was the case to make a disability pension claim on Army form Z.22 and get an award. WFA/Fold3 have two pension index cards showing this man claimed for a disability(ies) having been transferred 11.3.19 The disability(ies) he claimed is not indicated but he was initially awarded 11/9 pw from 12.3.19 to 9.3.20 Under the 1918 Royal Warrant that quantum was the 30% rate for a pension Class V soldier / Private - for himself and two unnamed children [8/3 + 2/- + 1/6 ... as was normal under that particular RW there was no award for a wife] = Does this family information help clarify if this man was your GGF? M Edit: Frances, I'm happy to move this post to a BOWMAN thread should one be created. Thank you this doesn't appear to be him. I have struggled to find a reference to him serving in the Great War and this was the only one that came close. He was 29 at the outbreak of war and perhaps did not see active service. I will try to find more evidence before I set up a thread! Thank you so much! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianmorris547 Posted 17 March Share Posted 17 March 11 minutes ago, David26 said: One thing I should have added was to tag our expert on the East Lancashire artillery, @brianmorris547 in case he has other insights to offer. David. David I can not help with this one I'm afraid. 711760 is a Bolton Artillery number (3 East Lancs Brigade RFA (T)). He did not enlist in Bolton on 08/09/1915, or a nearby date, according to the Bolton Evening News. It is possible that he was in the third line (3/3 ELB) in Shropshire in 1915-16 before being posted elsewhere. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David26 Posted 17 March Share Posted 17 March Just now, brianmorris547 said: David I can not help with this one I'm afraid. 711760 is a Bolton Artillery number (3 East Lancs Brigade RFA (T)). He did not enlist in Bolton on 08/09/1915, or a nearby date, according to the Bolton Evening News. It is possible that he was in the third line (3/3 ELB) in Shropshire in 1915-16 before being posted elsewhere. Brian Thanks for looking Brian. Much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
francescoups Posted 17 March Author Share Posted 17 March 3 hours ago, George Rayner said: A family tree within Ancestry has linked Samuel Haskell to this soldier Name Samuel Haskell Age 19 Birth Year Abt 1881 Birth Place Liverpool, Lancashire Desertion Date 3 May 1900 Desertion Place Seaforth Publication Date 12 Jun 1900 Regimental Number 8221 Military Corps Lancs Artillery On first appearances things seem to tie them together-however I can't find definitive evidence. The service number 8221 is quoted on one of the Pension Cards though without attribution to a regiment. From Fold3 George Thankyou! This is incredible! I was aware that a distant cousin had completed a family tree but showed no military data so I will search again! Does this mean that he enlisted and then deserted prior to war and yet returned to serve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
francescoups Posted 17 March Author Share Posted 17 March 2 minutes ago, brianmorris547 said: David I can not help with this one I'm afraid. 711760 is a Bolton Artillery number (3 East Lancs Brigade RFA (T)). He did not enlist in Bolton on 08/09/1915, or a nearby date, according to the Bolton Evening News. It is possible that he was in the third line (3/3 ELB) in Shropshire in 1915-16 before being posted elsewhere. Brian Thank you so much, this is really interesting! He was definitely a Liverpool lad with a young family at home so I had imagined he would have enlisted with a great many of other men there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David26 Posted 17 March Share Posted 17 March (edited) That's interesting. I don't have access to Fold3 so cannot see the original desertion document, but their transcription gives his service number in 1900 as 8221. His desertion appears to have taken place during the middle of the South African War (1899-1902). As a territorial he was a part-time soldier and had no obligation to serve overseas so desertion may mean that he absented himself during one of their annual camps or perhaps the unit had been mobilised for home defence to replace a regular unit which had gone to South Africa. And regarding his service number, to add more information but sadly no real light, the Medal Roll agrees with his medal card on his number having been 2218 (image again courtesy of Ancestry and the National Archives). David. Edited 17 March by David26 Improving clarity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianmorris547 Posted 17 March Share Posted 17 March I remembered that from September 1917 the WD of 210 Brigade (The original Blackburn Artillery) of 42 Div names wounded up till December 1917. No trace of 711760. The WD of 211 Brigade names Honours but not wounded. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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