Enlistment date from service number - is it possible?

[Pat Twomey]

 

 

 

 

This is Pte Richard Barry 3503 Leinster Reg and 32529 Royal Dublin Fusiliers. 

He was born in Roscrea 1896. I am trying to determine when he might have enlisted. Would either service numbers offer a clue?

He does not seem to have been awarded the 1914/15 star so maybe some time later?

Thanks for any help.

Pat

 

 

 

 

[Matlock1418]

A pension index card and a pension ledger page at WFA/Fold3 also have 7076079 [RDF I think]

As a seven digit number then it rather appears also post-war service and perhaps records still kept by the MoD/transferred to TNA???

May potentially supply you with the earlier enlistment date you desire

M

Edited 15 March by Matlock1418
typo

[Pat Twomey]

Thanks Matlock,

I tried Ancestry and found the Pension card. Are  the post-war service records available online do you know?

Thanks again,

Pat

[Matlock1418]

17 minutes ago, Pat Twomey said:

Are  the post-war service records available online

No, I'm afraid not.

https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-records-of-service

M

[AndrewSid]

Pat,

I suspect both numbers are dateable.  Service records comparison required which takes time and effort.  Im not up to that tonight.  In compensation here is him listed as wounded on the 7th of May 1918 Casualty List which was published on 10th May 1918.  His wounding was likely around 4 weeks earlier.  It may have been the reason for his regimental transfer.  However his RDF medal roll has him as being with the 7th Battalion Leinster Regiment.  They disbanded  in Feb 1918 accordiing to the long long trail (link below).  Some unpicking to do. 

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/the-prince-of-waless-leinster-regiment-royal-canadians/

Edited 15 March by AndrewSid

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

2 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

A pension index card and a pension ledger page at WFA/Fold3 also have 7076079 [RDF I think]

As a seven digit number then it rather appears also post-war service and perhaps records still kept by the MoD/transferred to TNA???

May potentially supply you with the earlier enlistment date you desire

M

As is often the case, this 7 digit number doesn't appear in the MOD database of records they used to have in their custody.
And nothing similar for any of the 5 R. Barrys listed.
That doesn't necessarily mean that there aren't any records somewhere.
I'd suggest requesting a search  from MOD.

[Pat Twomey]

Thanks Dai and Andrew that information is really helpful and I will explore the search options through the MOD.

Thanks also to Matlock really appreciate the effort and time you all gave this request.

Pat

[Pat Twomey]

2 hours ago, AndrewSid said:

Pat,

I suspect both numbers are dateable.  Service records comparison required which takes time and effort.  Im not up to that tonight.  In compensation here is him listed as wounded on the 7th of May 1918 Casualty List which was published on 10th May 1918.  His wounding was likely around 4 weeks earlier.  It may have been the reason for his regimental transfer.  However his RDF medal roll has him as being with the 7th Battalion Leinster Regiment.  They disbanded  in Feb 1918 accordiing to the long long trail (link below).  Some unpicking to do. 

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/the-prince-of-waless-leinster-regiment-royal-canadians/

Could you tell me the name of this newspaper Andrew as I can't seem to find it when I do a search?

Thanks

[AndrewSid]

Pat,

It’s from the HMSO Casualty Lists.   They are on British  Newspaper archive under the publication title ‘ weekly casualty list ‘  but also from the National Library of Scotland publication of the same document here:

https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/194154959

[Pat Twomey]

Excellent 

thank you

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

16 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

As is often the case, this 7 digit number doesn't appear in the MOD database of records they used to have in their custody.

 I meant to add that as the records are now at (or in transit to) The National Archives at Kew, the database is now more easily searchable on  Ancestry in The UK Military Discharge Indexes 1920-1971

[Bordercollie]

Enlistment records for soldiers who enlisted in the Irish Regiments 1920 and 1922 which were subsequently disbanded are available on line from the National Army Museum.  Using the seven digit number provided by Matlock above leads to Richard Barry's post-war re-enlistment.  In the column dealing with previous service the date of his original enlistment in the Leinster Regiment is given as 7th November 1913.  Record courtesy of the National Army Museum below.

 

[Pat Twomey]

Wow! that's a great find - wonder what the "Bd Ship" for 5 days mean or the "A.B. Sea" for 11 months?

 

[Pat Twomey]

Enlistment in the Leinster's in November 1913 but doesn't seem to have been awarded a 1914/15 Star? According to the Long Long Trail the 7th Leinsters landed at Le Havre in December 1915. 

[Bordercollie]

Paul Nixon's excellent Army Service Numbers website indicates that a man enlisting as a Regular in the Leinster Regiment circa 1913 would have been allocated a number somewhere between 9718 (allocated in January 1912) and 10110 (allocated in January 1914).  A surviving service record for 3575 John Alcock shows that he enlisted as a Special Reservist in January 1914 in 4th Battalion Leinster Regiment.  So it looks like Richard Barry was also a Special Reservist.  John Alcock was mobilised in August 1914 and posted to 1st Battalion Leinster Regiment in February 1915.  Unfortunately without a surviving service record it is not possible to explain why John Barry did not qualify for the 1914/15 Star. It seems that he would not have been serving with 7th Battalion Leinster Regiment when they disembarked in December 1915.  

[Pat Twomey]

Thanks for that interesting comparison.

Barry was born 0n 2/10/1896 and enlisted in November 1913 which makes him just 17 when he joined. Did one have to be 19 to be sent overseas? Maybe this was the reason for not qualifying for a star?

 

[Bordercollie]

Yes in 1915 he would have needed to be 19 before being posted to a unit of the BEF, assuming that he declared his correct age on enlistment.  So there was a very narrow window of less than three months for him to qualify for the 1914/15 Star.

[Pat Twomey]

Was he eligible to join the special reserves at 17 years of age?

[Bordercollie]

I think he probably was.  The age for enlistment to the Territorial Force was from 17 to 35 years (Para 76, Regulations for the Territorial Force 1908).  I would imagine that the Special Reserve would have been the same. The definitive answer would be in the Recruiting for the Regular Army and Special Reserve Regulations 1912.   

Edited 18 March by Bordercollie

[kenf48]

4 hours ago, Pat Twomey said:

Was he eligible to join the special reserves at 17 years of age?

The published age eligibility for the Special Reserve in 1908 was seventeen to thirty years.