Great War or Boer War uniform?

[BillyH]

What era would the attached photo be?  and what would the stripes on the cuffs indicate? Thanks for any advice.

@FROGSMILE 

BillyH.

 

Edited 12 March by BillyH

[FROGSMILE]

12 hours ago, BillyH said:

What era would the attached photo be?  and what would the stripes on the cuffs indicate? Thanks for any advice.

@FROGSMILE 

BillyH.

 

It appears to date from the turn of the 20th century Billy, just before or after the 2nd Anglo/Boer War and I think he’s wearing a blue serge frock as undress working uniform (quite common in barracks at that time).  It’s possible that he’s wearing drab serge service dress, but the very bright coloured badges of rank and appointment do not chime with that so on balance a dark blue frock seems the more likely in this case.

His rank is either, a quarter-master-sergeant (QMS), or a acting sergeant major (ASM) of Volunteers/Territorials (depending on before or after 1908).  The primary, eye catching feature of the badge of rank for both was four inverted stripes, but the QMS had an 8-pointed star above and the ASM had a crown above instead.  Both were worn below the elbow as per your photo.

Both of those ranks and appointments were at the very top levels just below commissioned officer and so usually filled by markedly experienced soldiers in the last stages of their careers.  It’s not a full dress ceremonial uniform, or the badge would’ve only been worn on the right arm.

 

Edited 13 March by FROGSMILE

[BillyH]

Thanks for your help FS.  An Ancestry family tree believes that this man (born 1877) served in the Boer War as a private, and in 1914 he joined up again.   From what you say I am now thinking that he may have served in the Volunteers/Territorials after the Boer War and had the rank of Acting Sergeant Major. But if this was the case then wouldn't he have have had his S.Africa medal ribbons on show?

BillyH

[FROGSMILE]

Thinking upon this further, and squinting again at your photo I can see that the breast pocket flaps are rectangular and I also cannot find any incidence of blue patrol frocks with stripes on both arms.  This is also borne out by the two sizes of buttons.  As a result of those three factors I think that he is wearing drab khaki service dress, but with non regulation (for the jacket) stripes on the arms, instead of the drab herringbone authorised that can be seen in both of the photos I posted above.

28 minutes ago, BillyH said:

Thanks for your help FS.  An Ancestry family tree believes that this man (born 1877) served in the Boer War as a private, and in 1914 he joined up again.   From what you say I am now thinking that he may have served in the Volunteers/Territorials after the Boer War and had the rank of Acting Sergeant Major. But if this was the case then wouldn't he have have had his S.Africa medal ribbons on show?

BillyH

I would have expected to see his ribbons yes Billy, regardless of what type of jacket/frock he was wearing.

Edited 12 March by FROGSMILE

[BillyH]

. . . . .  I think it might be yet another case of a rogue family tree 

BillyH.

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, BillyH said:

. . . . .  I think it might be yet another case of a rogue family tree 

BillyH.

I suspect that he is more likely to be a QMS than a ASM, Billy.  The badges for both changed in 1915.  The QMS adopting a plain crown** (changed to with encircling laurel wreath in 1918) and the ASM was permitted the same coat of arms# as all sergeant majors of battalion (eventually known as RSM).  Ergo the photo can be no later than 1914.

An old soldier with prior experience of the army’s supply system would more easily be found useful as a QMS, but selection as an ASM was more challenging.

** having become a warrant officer in the new class 2 category.

# having been granted status as a warrant officer in the new class 1 category.

Edited 12 March by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

1 hour ago, BillyH said:

Thanks for your help FS.  An Ancestry family tree believes that this man (born 1877) served in the Boer War as a private, and in 1914 he joined up again.   From what you say I am now thinking that he may have served in the Volunteers/Territorials after the Boer War and had the rank of Acting Sergeant Major. But if this was the case then wouldn't he have have had his S.Africa medal ribbons on show?

BillyH

It might be something or nothing but, looking at the area in line with his top button, there is the possibility that he may be wearing 2nd Boer War medal ribbons. It's a very grainy image but the white blob might just be the centre of the KSAM ribbbon or is it just my imagination?.          Pete.

[BillyH]

Thanks CP,   . . . . .   yes I see what you mean, but the possible ribbons  seem a shade higher than would be normal? (I am no expert on such things though). However, since my first post earlier today I have made contact with the owner of the photo (who is his great niece) and I will get back here when I know more.

BillyH.

 

 

 

[BillyH]

Back again with a bit more info, and one more question.

I have now seen this man's medals, and I am very happy that he is the man in the photo, but no better quality photo is available. He was born in 1877 and he joined the Cheshire Regiment circa 1893 and he served as a private with their 2nd Bn in the Boer War. He only received the Queen's S.A. medal so he must have returned to the U.K. before January 1902? 

Can you tell me what his terms of service was likely to have been? (e.g. 7 years with the Colours + 5 years on Reserve). It is also known that he was on the Army Reserve in 1914 so he may have been in the Volunteers or Territorials between 1902 and 1914 and that may have been when he achieved the higher rank, and when the photo was taken. (Just trying to get an approximate date for the photo).

Thanks to @FROGSMILE + @CorporalPunishment for their previous help!

BillyH.

[Keith_history_buff]

Those who enlisted in the line infantry between July 1881 and March 1902 under Regular terms of service would have had their time split into 7 years with the colours, and the remaining 5 in the Army Reserve.

Would it be the case that any Boy enlistments would have to serve a full 12 years?

[FROGSMILE]

44 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said:

Those who enlisted in the line infantry between July 1881 and March 1902 under Regular terms of service would have had their time split into 7 years with the colours, and the remaining 5 in the Army Reserve.

Would it be the case that any Boy enlistments would have to serve a full 12 years?

Yes there were very strong restrictions on how long Boy Entrants had to serve once engaged and in later decades it became something of a scandal that was raised in Parliament (see Hansard 1969).  Many of the boys were career soldier’s sons and so in a sense already inured to the system and largely comfortable with it, but most others came from board schools and orphanages and I have gained the impression of an underlying subtext that service in the RN, or Army, was seen by some elements of society as a kind of payback for their having been raised at taxpayers expense.  The counter argument was that they had bed and board and if keen and hardworking an opportunity to advance themselves that they probably wouldn’t have had outside the services given their backgrounds.

As so often these arguments were rather polarised along right, left lines, with each side entrenched as to who was correct.  It is an argument that has endured and although boy entrants (junior entrants as they’re known now) no longer find themselves shackled by terms of service in the same way, there is still much criticism, driven by United Nation’s signatories, about the U.K. continuing to recruit under 18s, or “Boy Soldiers”.  Stung by this criticism, in recent decades the Army offer has been couched in a more overtly further education guise, with enlistees ostensibly entering a “college” rather than “battalion”, as it had hitherto been for centuries.

** Hansard:

1.https://hansard.parliament.uk/Lords/1969-04-23/debates/92e67cd8-6566-4229-9c29-caecb60be54c/ArmedForcesReleaseRightsOfBoyEntrants

2.https://hansard.parliament.uk/Lords/1967-03-16/debates/16a5bc74-bfd4-4f65-962c-6efac900b7a0/BoyServiceInTheArmedForces

3.https://hansard.parliament.uk/Lords‏/1970-11-05/debates/c5a62b9e-13b4-4bd0-81ef-c8e493b2faef/ArmedForcesBoyEntrants

4.https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1967/nov/29/armed-forces-discharge-rights-of-boy

5.https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1967/mar/16/boy-service-in-the-armed-forces

Edited 14 March by FROGSMILE

[Keith_history_buff]

Thomas Martin Sexton, born in Ireland but grew up in Wales. Aged 15 years and 6 months he enlisted on 20 August 1891 under Regular terms of service in the South Wales Borderers, 3772. His service record has survived, and is among the WO 363 burnt record compilation. It is accessible via FindMyPast, other suppliers are available.
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBM/WO363-4/7316087/20/502

He was obliged to serve 12 years, but deserted on 19 October 1897. (He's been mentioned on here before, by me.)

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, BillyH said:

Back again with a bit more info, and one more question.

I have now seen this man's medals, and I am very happy that he is the man in the photo, but no better quality photo is available. He was born in 1877 and he joined the Cheshire Regiment circa 1893 and he served as a private with their 2nd Bn in the Boer War. He only received the Queen's S.A. medal so he must have returned to the U.K. before January 1902? 

Can you tell me what his terms of service was likely to have been? (e.g. 7 years with the Colours + 5 years on Reserve). It is also known that he was on the Army Reserve in 1914 so he may have been in the Volunteers or Territorials between 1902 and 1914 and that may have been when he achieved the higher rank, and when the photo was taken. (Just trying to get an approximate date for the photo).

Thanks to @FROGSMILE + @CorporalPunishment for their previous help!

BillyH.

The uniform he wears was introduced in 1902, but the stripes on his arms are I think probably the previously authorised type that were gold lace on red backing**.  It’s known that these were worn initially in some units until the purpose designed drab worsted herringbone tape type was issued subsequently. Overall then I suspect a date of around 1903+/- (however, he might’ve been wearing the incorrect stripes even later depending on where he was serving and what he was doing, so it’s difficult to be precise).

** for rank and file in dismounted corps the stripes were red on off-white and used for good conduct as well as rank.

NB.  There are some errors in the artwork, but it serves to give an impression of the appearance of the rank stripes that I’m referring to.

 

Edited 14 March by FROGSMILE

[BillyH]

Many thanks to you both once again  -  BillyH.