PTE James Dann 13th battalion of the Durham Light Infantry

[zikalify]

I am wondering if anyone has any more information on him as he is a great great uncle. I have seen pictures of his grave and his name on several websites but don't have info on how he died etc. All I know is that he died on 5th October 1918.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/588053/james-dann/

[Michelle Young]

Welcome to the forum. The CWGC page isn’t opening, so I can’t see where he’s buried. Depending where he’s buried, he may have died of wounds. The CWGC site seems to be permanently out of action at the moment! However, the war diaries in the link, free to download after free registration, will tell you what was happening and where they were.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353380

[zikalify]

20 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

Welcome to the forum. The CWGC page isn’t opening, so I can’t see where he’s buried. Depending where he’s buried, he may have died of wounds. The CWGC site seems to be permanently out of action at the moment! However, the war diaries in the link, free to download after free registration, will tell you what was happening and where they were.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353380

PRIVATE

JAMES DANN

Service Number: 44975

Regiment & Unit/Ship

Durham Light Infantry

 

13th Bn.

 

Date of Death

Died 05 October 1918

 

Age 20 years old

 

Buried or commemorated at

GUIZANCOURT FARM CEMETERY, GOUY

A. 18.

France

 

Country of Service

United Kingdom

Additional Info

Son of Arthur and Eliza Dann, of 147, Portland St., Walsall.

[Allan1892]

His service papers have survived and can be seen on Find My Past (a subscription site) -- they are fire damaged but readable -- if you can access Find My Past (link below), take care as there are two pages for another soldier called Dann.

James Dann enlisted on the 18th September 1916 at Walsall, he gave his age as 17 years 11 months. He was placed into the Army Reserve the same day and he returned home to his civilian occupation. He was mobilised on the 15th February 1917 and posted to the 86th Training Reserve Battalion on the 19th February. His record shows that on the 27th October 1917 he was on a troopship which left Folkestone arriving at Boulogne (France) the same day. The 28th October saw him in the 35 Infantry Base Depot, Etaples awaiting orders. On the 31st October, he was transferred and posted to the 13th Battalion, Durham Light Infantry and given a new service number of 44975. His record goes on to say that he was Killed In Action, in the Field on the 9th October 1918.

British Army Service Records 1914-1920 Image | findmypast.co.uk

[Allan1892]

His entry in the Soldiers' Effects register shows that his father, Arthur, was the beneficiary. (images courtesy of Ancestry)

[Allan1892]

James' mother made an enquiry to the ICRC (International Committee Red Cross) to see if he had been taken prisoner - the enquiry card shows that James was in 'B' Company, 5th Platoon, Durham Light Infantry (image courtesy of Find My Past)

[RaySearching]

A previous forum post 5th Oct 18 13th Bn DLI

[Allan1892]

From 'Lives of the First World War' -- shows that he was KIA during the second battle to take Guizancourt Farm (image courtesy of Find My Past)

[zikalify]

Hi thanks for this. Based on this info can you definitely say if he died on the 5th or the 9th? And on the ICRC picture where it says missing does this mean they didn't find a body?

 

Thanks again!

[Chris_Baker]

A man declared as "missing in action" means that he was not present when the battalion took a roll call after the action, and that no British or French medical unit could report that he was in their hands.

Dann was however named as "killed in action" (War Office list of 14 January 1919), so there is something along the way that means that his death had become certain. This may be because  

The "negative envoye" essentially means that the ICRC had not received any positive news regarding his status (that is, that he was in enemy hands or known to be dead).

Edited 10 March by Chris_Baker

[Allan1892]

4 hours ago, zikalify said:

Based on this info can you definitely say if he died on the 5th or the 9th

Unless there is a mention in the Battalion's war diaries or another record that isn't online, I don't believe that the exact date can be verified. 

[PRC]

On 09/03/2024 at 11:37, Allan1892 said:

James' mother made an enquiry to the ICRC (International Committee Red Cross) to see if he had been taken prisoner - the enquiry card shows that James was in 'B' Company, 5th Platoon, Durham Light Infantry (image courtesy of Find My Past)

@zikalify - a belated welcome to the forum

As can be seen from the International Committee of the Red Cross record card the information that Mrs Dann had was that he had gone missing in the period 5th October to the 24th October 1918 - which even by the standards of the time was a longish period and probably went past any initial post-action roll call. The source of her information as to when he went missing was likely to be the communication from the War Office - although of course it could have come from another source or be an amalgam of things she had heard.

While the CWGC does include a date range for some of the individuals it commemorates, the preference for many organisations is to use systems that can only handle a single date. If nothing else this puts a slight question mark over the date - it could simply be the first day in the range.

So checking out the war diary to get a firm grasp of events in this period would be a good place to start. The 13 DLI were part of the 25th Division, and the Long, Long Trail shows the Division heavily involved in attacks through-out that period. http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/25th-division/

The CWGC's own database shows 160 individuals of the 13th Battalion as having died during this period. Some such as 32856 Private M. Hodgson, who died on the 9th and is buried at Beaurevoir British Cemetery, has a Grave Registration report which shows him and other 13th DLI men buried alongside an unknown British Soldier. Of course absolutely no way of knowing who that was but may well be that your Great Grand Uncle does lie in the grave of such a soldier, "known only to God". https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/587882/m-hodgson/

Cheers,
Peter

[zikalify]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

@zikalify - a belated welcome to the forum

As can be seen from the International Committee of the Red Cross record card the information that Mrs Dann had was that he had gone missing in the period 5th October to the 24th October 1918 - which even by the standards of the time was a longish period and probably went past any initial post-action roll call. The source of her information as to when he went missing was likely to be the communication from the War Office - although of course it could have come from another source or be an amalgam of things she had heard.

While the CWGC does include a date range for some of the individuals it commemorates, the preference for many organisations is to use systems that can only handle a single date. If nothing else this puts a slight question mark over the date - it could simply be the first day in the range.

So checking out the war diary to get a firm grasp of events in this period would be a good place to start. The 13 DLI were part of the 25th Division, and the Long, Long Trail shows the Division heavily involved in attacks through-out that period. http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/25th-division/

The CWGC's own database shows 160 individuals of the 13th Battalion as having died during this period. Some such as 32856 Private M. Hodgson, who died on the 9th and is buried at Beaurevoir British Cemetery, has a Grave Registration report which shows him and other 13th DLI men buried alongside an unknown British Soldier. Of course absolutely no way of knowing who that was but may well be that your Great Grand Uncle does lie in the grave of such a soldier, "known only to God". https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/587882/m-hodgson/

Cheers,
Peter

He has a grave at Guizancourt Farm cemetery, not sure if this means they recovered the body https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/17805626/james-dann

[Michelle Young]

His body wasn’t concentrated into the cemetery. The CWGC historical information says that the cemetery was made shortly after the capture of the farm. 

[GraemeClarke]

Morning

     James was the son of Arthur and Eliza (née Palmer) Dann of 113 and later of 147, Portland Street, Walsall, his father being a chain maker by trade and later being employed manufacturing cart gear.

     He was baptised at St. Peter’s Church, Walsall on Thursday 13 October 1898.

     A brown saddler by occupation, James attested for the Army on Monday 18 September 1916 and was immediately placed on reserve being mobilised on Thursday 15 February 1917 in the 86^th Training Reserve Battalion with regimental number 33634.

     Drafted to France on Wednesday 17 October 1917, James transferred to the 13^th Battalion, Durham Light Infantry on Wednesday 31 October 1917.

     James’s battalion served in Italy until September 1918 when they were transferred to St. Riquier, France arriving at billets in Millancourt on Thursday 19 September 1918. Here the battalion trained until Friday 27 September 1918 when they moved by train to Albert and, by way of Ribémont, Maricourt and Moslains, reached Ronssoy on Thursday 3 October 1918. The battalion only remained in Ronssoy for half an hour before marching on to Mont St. Martin, south of Le Catelet, where they prepared to attack Beaurevoir.

     At 1am on Saturday 5 October 1918 his battalion moved to assembly positions near Prospect Hill, east of le Catelet. The attack commenced at 6am with the battalion immediately receiving heavy machine gun fire. Notwithstanding this the battalion reached a sunken road running from Guizancourt Farm south eastwards of Beaurevoir. A further advance was made against a number of trenches with the battalion crossing the Villiers-Outréaux road. Being further forward than any other battalion, James’s battalion now received fierce shrapnel and machine gun fire making their gains untenable. The survivors were forced to retire to the sunken road where further machine gun fire forced a second withdrawal to a position only 400 yards from their start positions.

     The battalion suffered terribly in the attack having 61 men killed and numerous others wounded or missing.

     The War Diary records,

    “4 October 1918 - The battalion rested at Mt. S. Martins.

     5 October 1918 - At 1am the battalion moved to assembly trenches east of Prospect Hill with object of attacking high ground north of Beaurevoir.

     Attack at first successful but battalion had to retire owing to heavy casualties.

     Lieutenant Colonel Denzil Clarke D.S.O., M.C. wounded. Captain C. Chapman, Lt. A. Hales, 2^nd Lts. E. Forrest, R. Robinson, N. Willis and E.  Callow were wounded. Lt. H. Hart, 2^nd Lts. P. Smith and C. Dodds and Lt. J. Golder were killed. 2^nd Lt. F. Audas missing.

     Battalion again moved forward but unable to advance far owing to very heavy machine gun fire. Line dug about 400 yards in advance of original starting line.

     6 October 1918 - Advance continued. Sunken road Beaurevoir - Villers Outreaux reached. 2^nd Lt. W.R. Dewar wounded.

     7 to 8 October 1918 - Battalion dug in on sunken road Beaurevoir - Villers Outreaux. Relieved by 66^th Division at 3am on morning of 8^th battalion marched back to Lormisset arriving there about 5am. Here a good meal was obtained and remnants of battalion were cleaned up, washed and refitted with bombs, flares etc.

     9 October 1918 - At 2am battalion marched to Serrain Farm. Orders to attack were received on the march. Objective V.5. central station. About 9.30 battalion was held up on railway embankment. At 2pm cavalry came up and battalion advanced to final objective which was captured without much opposition.”

     James is buried in Guizancourt Farm Cemetery, Gouy, Aisne in Grave A.18. He was 20 years of age.