Career of George Champ in the Artillery 1902-1917

[mjc1]

I am seeking some direction please? (Dont be rude!) My late Gt Uncle served with the RHFA in 1902 records are like hens teeth. I have a regimental number and that he was a driver but nothing else. I have exhausted all the avenues that I know of so far. Can anyone on the site direct me to a book or someone with knowledge of the Regiment between 1902 and 1907 please?

I am after basics;

Where were they based in those days, where did they do their basic training, what were their uniforms, ranks, etc. I am really dumb regarding this regiment. The man who I researching, served prewar, emigrated to Canada, rejoined the Canadian CRHA (after lying about his age again!), he was wounded and then after recovering he was badly gassed. Invalided back to Canada. I have all of his Canadian papers but nothing from his service to his King.

Thanks for your guidance.

Mike

[Keith_history_buff]

Hello,

For starters, you would like to know more about the military career of a WW1 veteran, so on this basis I would consider your request to be in concert with the purpose of the Great War Forum, as long as the thread covers his entire military career. Ultimately, the moderators have the final say.

It is my guess that he would have enlisted prior to August 1902. Had he enlisted in the time period August to December, he would still be under the 12 year obligation, and not a Time Expired man. It seems a peculiar period of time that he served. If he had enlisted between January to March 1902, I would expect him to serve 7 years with the colours, if he had enlisted between April to July 1902, I would expect him to serve 3 years with the colours.

Upon finishing colour service, and joining the Army Reserve, he would have to gain permission to emigrate. Thereafter, there was a financial motivation to submit his paperwork every 3 months, and to be paid a bounty for being in the Army Reserve.

The other questions would be: was he dishonourably discharged, or medically discharged, or discharged from regular service by purchase on payment of £18? At other times, there were initiatives to soldiers to extend their time, or to transfer earlier to the Army Reserve, with a resultant payment made to whoever took up the offer.

That august body which is the "regiment" of Royal Artillery is a massive body of men, more appropriately referred to as a "corps" - it being an entire arm of the military. During WW1, a pair of artillery Batteries were known as an Artillery Brigade. The nomenclature changed to Artillery Regiment just prior to WW2 for the British Army. I consider what you have asked as a series of essay type questions, so essay type publications or books are likely to be the way forwards, rather than a two sentence soundbyte on a forum.

  

1 hour ago, mjc1 said:

My late Gt Uncle served with the RHFA in 1902 ..  he was a driver but nothing else. Can anyone on the site direct me to a book or someone with knowledge of the Regiment between 1902 and 1907 please?

I am after basics;

Where were they based in those days, where did they do their basic training, what were their uniforms, ranks, etc. I am really dumb regarding this regiment.

The man who I researching, served prewar, emigrated to Canada, rejoined the Canadian CRHA ...

The corps of Royal Artillery is ubiquitous, so wherever the British Army has a substantial garrison, the artillery had a presence. It likewise makes sense that they, and the corps of Royal Engineers use the motto 'ubique' to reflect their omnipresent deployment.

If you look at the strength of the Royal Artillery relative to that of the Royal Welsh Fusiliers, you will see that this not comparing apples with apples.

With regard to books:

I have a particular interest in a family member who was a pre-war regular, and embarked at Southampton with the rest of the BEF. I was interested as to what would have been the life of an infantryman at this time, and I was of the belief that he had served in India. I found "Old Soldier Sahib" by Frank Richards, decorated for bravery during WW1 to be a very interesting read. I also read the following; do not be put off by the title:

Title	Pick Up Your Parrots and Monkeys: And Fall in Facing the Boat Cassell Military Trade Bks
Author	William Pennington
Edition	illustrated
Publisher	Cassell, 2003
ISBN	0304365645, 9780304365647

An unusual, vivid coming-of-age story and unforgettable autobiographical portrayal of the last days of the Indian Raj. "Pick up your parrots and monkeys, and fall in facing the boat" was the traditional order given to British soldiers heading home from India. William Pennington overheard the command when he arrived in India at the age of 17 to serve in the horse artillery. His compelling portrayal of army life extends from the 1930s to the Burma campaign in World War II

It told the story of life in the Royal Horse Artillery, and I was under the impression that little would have changed in the period 1857 to 1939, relative to the structure of the day, tasks performed etc. I am not aware of a similar publication by a WW1 artillery veteran, but artillery matters is not an area of special interest to me.

Even before trying to piece together a framework for your ancestors service in the British Army, I get the impression that you have the framework for his CEF service, but have yet to expand upon this.

I was recently made aware of the following website, which may be of interest
http://www.regimentalrogue.com/misc/researching_first_world_war_soldiers.htm

Whilst LLT is about the British Army, these traditions and approaches were in use with the CEF, so a lot of the content will be of use, in my opinion, in relation to his CEF service, as well as his service in the British Army of HM King Edward VII. 

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-royal-artillery-in-the-first-world-war/ 

How long was his period of training in the CRHA? Have you been able to determine which formations he was with on the Western Front? Are you happy to share his name and service number?

Hope this makes for an interesting read.

[mjc1]

Hi Keith, thank you for your comprehensive answer, I do appreciate it.

The difficulty is that I have all of his World War One Service courtesy of the Canadian government two years ago.

The time served in Blighty would appear to be about 5 years. He then married (I am waiting for his marriage lines) in Dudley. After that he had a number of Barman jobs in a Hotel in Kings Norton, and other places.

Something went amiss with the marriage. He emigrated to Canada and worked as a Chauffeur  from 1911 until war broke out. Then he re-enlisted as a Cannuck and served in France for two years until wounded.

After injury he and his wife re-united and lived in Quebec until he died aged 62.

So any help with where he would have done his basic, how long for, etc. My would that help me form a picture.

The books I will seek out.

Thank you again.

Mike

[mjc1]

Thank you for the time expired information. I had forgotten that. I have a copy of the book on the way; 'Pick Up Your Parrots and Monkeys: And Fall in Facing the Boat'. Wonderful phrase/command!

Mike

[Keith_history_buff]

17 hours ago, Keith_history_buff said:

If you look at the strength of the Royal Artillery relative to that of the Royal Welsh Fusiliers, you will see that this not comparing apples with apples.

Hello Mike,

I made a point of mentioning the Royal Welsh Fusiliers, given they featured predominantly in a researched paper that was published by the Western Front Association. In August 1914, the regiment had two Regular battalions, a Special Reserve (primarily) battalion, and 4th, 5th, 6th & 7th TF battalions. The actual strength of the first three battalions was 3,702 men.*

* page 28 of Stand To! 101 September 2014
British Line Infantry Reserves for the Great War - Part 2: A Case Study of the Royal Welch Fusiliers by David Langley

For this county infantry regiment, its numerical strength was considerably less than any of the elements of the corps of Royal Artillery.

Hope this makes for an interesting read.

Edit: This is broken down into 1,720 regulars serving with the colours, 1,351 regulars in the Army Reserve, for a total of 3071.

In addition there are 631 Special Reserve men.

Edited 9 March by Keith_history_buff
Further breakdown of figures from the article

[mjc1]

Your point is well taken Keith. I visited the rogues link and George came up very quickly. Although I have his whole attestation papers there is only one in that site. Your comments about doing 10 years are borne out and he states that he served in RHA and RFA. Just for interests sake I have attached the sheet. I researched the date of his fathers death on the General Registry site and low and behold his dad hung himself in 1906. George married in 1907 and after that he was a Barman. So whether the Army released him against his due date, who knows.

Mike

[Keith_history_buff]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for sharing this image of his CEF attestation. The colour image of the attestation that I am looking at has his number of 41012, and is marked 2nd Artillery Brigade C.F.A.  Elsewhere I see he was in 5th Field Battery.

In August 1914, we was in 21st Field Battery within 6th Artillery Brigade, prior to being posted to 5th Field Battery 2nd Artillery Brigade.

What I find interesting is to read about him suffering from the effects of gas, and then reading that this occurred in April 1915, when the Germans first used gas on the Western Front!

Do you know what artillery pieces were used by 5th Field Battery 2nd Artillery Brigade; were they using 18 pounders?

I have an off-topic message to send you.

Thanks
Keith

[Keith_history_buff]

The image is provided courtesy of LAC
L'image est fournie gracieusement par BAC

[Keith_history_buff]

George Champ enlisted under Regular terms of service on 7 March 1902. He was allocated a service number of 22310. He signed up for 7 years with the colours, and the remaining 5 years with the Army Reserve. On 30 March 1904, he agreed to extend his colour service to 8 years. On 14 March 1907, he was transferred early to the Army Reserve, this being documented by his form D 422 which has survived. I would imagine there was some payment involved, this being akin to "voluntary redundancy".

His Statement of Service records that on 23 March 1911, he enlisted as a Gunner, presumably under Militia terms of service, in the Royal Canadian Garrison Artillery, 4403. This had no effect on his ongoing 12 year contract with the British Army, and he was Time Expired on 6 March 1914.

His Statement of Service shows he was ranked as a Driver, posted to 1 Depot Royal Field Artillery, which I presume was at Woolwich, and remained here for close to 8 months, presumably undergoing his training, before being transferred to 21st Battery Royal Field Artillery. He passed the exam, needed as a precondition to being promoted to Corporal, on 26 May 1903. At the time when he agreed to extend his colour service to 8 years, his Form B 221 states his character was 'very good' and that 21st Battery were at Bradford. At the time of his transfer to the Army Reserve, his Form B 2056 states his character was 'very good'.

Having started with the entry rank of Driver, on account of his experience with horses, he was appointed Lance Bombardier on 5 February 1903. He was promoted to Bombardier on 26 November 1904. His Statement of Service shows that, at his own request, he reverted to Driver on his last day of colour service. I presume he did this, in order to be able to fulfil the early transfer to the Army Reserve.

His service record is with the WW1 service records, relating to pensions, notwithstanding the fact he was discharged prior to the outbreak of the war.

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/results?sourcecategory=armed+forces+%26+conflict&sid=101&firstname=george&firstname_variants=true&lastname=champ&keywords=artillery&soldiernumber=22310&keywordsplace_proximity=5&sourcecountry=great+britain

https://www.ancestry.com/search/collections/1114/?name=George_Champ&birth=1882&f-Self-Military-RegimentNumber=22310&keyword=Artillery

[mjc1]

Keith, you are a gem! I am so grateful! The record from his gassing injury always amazes me. Personally, I have a feeling that he wanted to die. You see, he married in 1907 and all seemed well, the couple had two children. Then something went wrong. He emigrated to Canada alone. His Canadian attestation papers list him as unmarried. His Mother was living in Bilston and I believe his wife was living with her. While George was away she has an affair with man and a child. He is alone in Canada and his wife has done the dirty on him. When the war comes he joins up as a single man. It was only as time goes along in his service that she reappears and starts getting soldiers wife's pay. What a brave man!

Mike

[Keith_history_buff]

To my surprise, I have discovered that the men of 2nd Artillery Brigade who were in France & Flanders are on a nominal roll.

I navigated to the CEF nominal rolls via this page:
https://militaryandfamilyhistory.blog/2016/04/18/nominal-rolls-of-the-canadian-expeditionary-force/

Here is the direct link to their roll
https://data2.archives.ca/e/e444/e011087940.pdf

War Diary 1914 to 1915
https://recherche-collection-search.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/home/record?app=fonandcol&IdNumber=2004748&q=war diary brigade artillery 2nd

 

[Keith_history_buff]

From what I can see on the roll, his commanding officers were Major Edward Gerald Hanson and Captain John Angus MacDonald, SNCOs were Battery Sergeant Major Kenneth Carruthers & Quarter Master Sergeant Thomas Wallace.

The unit gets a mention on LLT too
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/1st-canadian-division/

[mjc1]

Thank you so much Kieth; I have a wealth of items to read through and more than I could have hoped for. The links right to the LLT are marvellous. This group is absolutely amazing because of men like yourself. Thank you!!!!!

[Keith_history_buff]

Thank you for your kind words Mike. Alas, other than the book written in Canada by Pennington, I am unaware of other memoirs by artillerymen, but do hope that a forum member can make a recommendation as to other books out there that a worth a read.

[mjc1]

Well the book should be with me next week. Thank goodness there are some good books worth reading giving an insight into their lives.

I will be publishing George's story on my website; https://theirlostvoices.com  If you would like to see what I do. I have to publish a frontal page shortly to make it more attractive.

Speak soon.

Mike