WW1 war diary extract DCLI 10th battalion

[Kcoop]

My great great grandad was killed on either the 2nd or 3rd of November 1916 and my grandad has always had a deep interest with the war more specifically WW1 as it is the war his grandfather died in. He is going on a trip to France soon to visit his grave and hopefully the area he would have died in and has asked me to find it I’ve managed to find the war Diary for his battalion which was the 10th battalion DCLI which was apart of the second division as pioneers

I have no idea how to translate it and was wondering if anybody could help me understand it so that we could find out possible where and when he died. From what a friend of his said it was by a bomb hitting their trench not in combat if that’s any help. 
Thanks 

[RussT]

Welcome to the Forum.

Would you like to share a name and number with us? There might be information about him other than what it says, if anything, in the war diary.

Regards

Russ

[Kcoop]

Yes his name was Walter Hughes and his number was 24704 

[Michelle Young]

There is no mention of casualties that I can see. Looks like they were involved in routine trench repairs and work. 

[Kcoop]

Thank you can you see where abouts this would of been

[Michelle Young]

There’s a map reference on the right of the page showing which trench map ~57 D SE. However, looking up a couple of the trenches  mentioned, eg Young st and Tournai, it’s referenced trench map 57 d NE 3&4 Hebuterne. Hopefully, @Howardand @WhiteStarLine will see this and pick up on the references for you. 

[Kcoop]

Lovely thank you so much for the help 

[RussT]

His MIC (image courtesy Ancestry) indicates, I think, that his Medals were not delivered successfully to his NoK and were retuned and eventually broken up.

I understand that this means the living NoK can apply for them afresh.

[Howard]

If you search for just Signy in TrenchMapper, it gives you la Signy Farm at 57d.K.27.d.9.5. Just click Take me there then change maps in the left hand panel. There are some aerial photos as well.

The map reference on the left is a bit problematic, it looks like P.17.b.2.7 which in full is 57D.P.17.b.2.7. However, searching for Mountjoy, Borden etc. these points are not very near that reference. Looking at the authors' handwriting for words like "Parties" the ref letter looks like P to me. You can put 57D.P.17.b.2.7 in TrenchMapper and click Convert.

In this case it is probably best to search for names then choose the map in the left panel. Bear in mind that some trench names are not shown on all maps and some changed name.

It is truly remarkable how many point queries are on the edge of maps!!!

This fragment is from this map:-

Name: Colincamps, Auchonvillers, Beaumont hamel, Hamel, Vitermont, Mailly Maillet, Martinsart, Mesnil
Sheet: 57D NE 3 & 57D NE 4 & 57D SE 1 & 57D SE 2 [parts of]
Scale: 1:10,000
Edition: 8/10/1915
4th Division Defences - hand drawn map on linen from S Mildred, the CRE 4 Division during the Battle of the Somme . Printed 8/10/1915
Id: ma_001100

To go straight there, right click, choose Map ID jump and use ma_001100. Pan small distances only or TM may change the map.

 

Howard

 

[Kcoop]

Thank you so so much for the information on the trench and medal cards both me and my grandad are very grateful 

[kenf48]

10 minutes ago, Kcoop said:

Thank you so so much for the information on the trench and medal cards both me and my grandad are very grateful 

As a matter of interest the medals were returned, therefore you may find this thread useful

 

[RussT]

 

As you remark, there is some uncertainty on his date of death - being either the 2nd or 3rd November 1916

CWGC has 02/11/1916

SDGW has 03/11/1916

Soldiers' Effects Record has 2nd/3rd November 1916

His Pension Index Card also has 2nd/3rd November 1916

The exact same uncertainty in the above documentation is also recorded for the man buried next to Hughes i.e. William Hext 24172 10/Bn DCLI, which indicates they died in the same incident - whatever it was. It means that if you find any circumstances behind Hext's death, then you can perhaps make an inference as to what befell Hughes.

The nearest 10/Bn DCLI man who was killed before them died on 27/10/1916 and the next 10/Bn DCLI to be killed after them died (also with some uncertainty) on the 7th or 8th November 1916. So Hughes' (& Hext's) death was a relatively infrequent occurrence for the Battalion - indeed "just" 16 men in total died in the 10/Bn DCLI during the whole of October and November 1916. Given the infrequency, it's a pity they didn't get a mention in the 10/Bn DCLI War Diary - but it is evident that was not to be.

As an aside, I was would estimate his enlistment date as being at end of February/beginning of March 1916 during the raising of the 10/Bn and I would expect he deployed with the 10/Bn DCLI when they went to France at the end of June 1916. It seems Walter was destined not to be with them very long. His short service is reflected in his War Gratuity of £3, which tells us he served less than 12 months total, consistent with service from circa March 1916 to November 1916.

Regards

Russ

 

 

[Kcoop]

Thanks you so much for the information it has really been a big help and my grandfather can’t wait to hopefully visit him in September thank you 

[Kcoop]

On 08/03/2024 at 16:44, Howard said:

If you search for just Signy in TrenchMapper, it gives you la Signy Farm at 57d.K.27.d.9.5. Just click Take me there then change maps in the left hand panel. There are some aerial photos as well.

The map reference on the left is a bit problematic, it looks like P.17.b.2.7 which in full is 57D.P.17.b.2.7. However, searching for Mountjoy, Borden etc. these points are not very near that reference. Looking at the authors' handwriting for words like "Parties" the ref letter looks like P to me. You can put 57D.P.17.b.2.7 in TrenchMapper and click Convert.

In this case it is probably best to search for names then choose the map in the left panel. Bear in mind that some trench names are not shown on all maps and some changed name.

It is truly remarkable how many point queries are on the edge of maps!!!

This fragment is from this map:-

Name: Colincamps, Auchonvillers, Beaumont hamel, Hamel, Vitermont, Mailly Maillet, Martinsart, Mesnil
Sheet: 57D NE 3 & 57D NE 4 & 57D SE 1 & 57D SE 2 [parts of]
Scale: 1:10,000
Edition: 8/10/1915
4th Division Defences - hand drawn map on linen from S Mildred, the CRE 4 Division during the Battle of the Somme . Printed 8/10/1915
Id: ma_001100

To go straight there, right click, choose Map ID jump and use ma_001100. Pan small distances only or TM may change the map.

 

Howard

 

Hi sorry to bother you I just spoke with my grandad about the map and whereabouts he might have been and he told me that it was not in a trench that he was hit but supposedly repairing a bridge and I know it’s a long shot but do you know if any of the places referenced in the diary that his unit might have been have any bridges near them thanks-kelly

[WhiteStarLine]

12 minutes ago, Kcoop said:

if any of the places referenced in the diary

Hi @Kcoop, there appear to be lots of places in the diary that could be identified, but you have uploaded such a small image it is very difficult to read, even when enlarged.  Could you please post a larger version of the extract? 

[Kcoop]

10 minutes ago, WhiteStarLine said:

Hi @Kcoop, there appear to be lots of places in the diary that could be identified, but you have uploaded such a small image it is very difficult to read, even when enlarged.  Could you please post a larger version of the extract? 

Yep ok thank you 

[WhiteStarLine]

That is a smaller extract and even harder to read.  Plus it is sideways.

[Kcoop]

56 minutes ago, WhiteStarLine said:

That is a smaller extract and even harder to read.  Plus it is sideways.

Yes sorry I turned it sideways to make the text larger and assumed you would only need the 2nd and 3rd days as that is when he died would it be easier if I sent you the diary altogether?

[kenf48]

2 hours ago, WhiteStarLine said:

That is a smaller extract and even harder to read.  Plus it is sideways.

If it helps

Transcription of the 2nd and 3rd November 1916 or as described by K.W. Michison in 'Pioneer Battalions of the Great War' Pioneering on the Somme;Grinding on  

The marginal Map Reference from the 1st November and for the ensuing week is P.17.b.2.7.   This was the location of a new camp which the Battalion moved to on the 23rd October 1916  

2nd November

"A" Coy parties in 5th Avenue, Roman Road Mountjoy and Tournai cleaning out trench replacing floorboards. 

"B" Coy Cheeroh, Newgate , Cheapside and Vallade "

C" Coy Parties on High Holborn, 5th and 6th Avenue 6th Avenue between Bourdin and Mountjoy, D (?)  in dug out, light railway and party at 5th RE Yard.

"D" Company constructing dug outs in White City and Vallade Revetting and completing (?) saps for water storage in Vallade

3rd November

All Companies work as on the 2nd with the addition of "Machine Gunners worked with A Coy on 6th Avenue."

2 hours ago, Kcoop said:

Hi sorry to bother you I just spoke with my grandad about the map and whereabouts he might have been and he told me that it was not in a trench that he was hit but supposedly repairing a bridge and I know it’s a long shot but do you know if any of the places referenced in the diary that his unit might have been have any bridges near them thanks

What evidence is there for this?  The light railway as shown on the map provided above may have been a target for enemy artillery.

As for the date of death the reporting period was usually to 5 a.m. on the following day

 

[Kcoop]

33 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

If it helps

Transcription of the 2nd and 3rd November 1916 or as described by K.W. Michison in 'Pioneer Battalions of the Great War' Pioneering on the Somme;Grinding on  

The marginal Map Reference from the 1st November and for the ensuing week is P.17.b.2.7.   This was the location of a new camp which the Battalion moved to on the 23rd October 1916  

2nd November

"A" Coy parties in 5th Avenue, Roman Road Mountjoy and Tournai cleaning out trench replacing floorboards. 

"B" Coy Cheeroh, Newgate , Cheapside and Vallade "

C" Coy Parties on High Holborn, 5th and 6th Avenue 6th Avenue between Bourdin and Mountjoy, D (?)  in dug out, light railway and party at 5th RE Yard.

"D" Company constructing dug outs in White City and Vallade Revetting and completing (?) saps for water storage in Vallade

3rd November

All Companies work as on the 2nd with the addition of "Machine Gunners worked with A Coy on 6th Avenue."

What evidence is there for this?  The light railway as shown on the map provided above may have been a target for enemy artillery.

As for the date of death the reporting period was usually to 5 a.m. on the following day

 

We didn’t really have any evidence for this only that a friend of Walter who survived the war and had apparently been with him before he died told Walter’s son that they had been repairing a bridge at the time and that he had left to relay a message to their Captain/ lieutenant and when he had returned Walter and already died after being hit by a stray shell. I’m not sure how true this is as both the man that told it and Walter’s son are both now dead so I can only go of what has been passed along to my grandad thank you for the help do you think there is anyway I can find out what company he would of been in I’ve contacted The keep which holds the records for the DCLI enlistments but I’m not sure if it will say which company he was apart of in the 10th battalion-thanks kelly

[WhiteStarLine]

Hi Kelly, personally I find the story highly plausible.  The map Howard posted has every trench mentioned in the diary and at least 1 bridge (Waterloo bridge) nearby.  Chances are there would have been a few bridges where pioneers frequently worked in small work parties or even alone.  For one person to leave, come back and find the other dead would have been a sad, but not uncommon occurrence.

The other thing is that rather than this being a stray shell, it was more likely what is called "harassing fire".  A widely used technique ever since artillery ranges increased, targets were mapped and when the artillery was not directly supporting infantry, they would fire a few rounds on known crossroads, bridges, railways, routes with high traffic etc.  This was in the hope of disrupting anyone working on or passing by and perhaps to inflict damage on the road or bridge or rail.  The harassing fire targets could be well out of sight of the enemy, so they would fire a few rounds and move on.

The other aspect of the story that makes me believe it, is the fact that it has not been embellished.  Simply a sad tale of a man working on his own in a dangerous environment where a shell could be fired by an unseen enemy and perhaps not even heard by the victim.

Cheers, Bill

[kenf48]

 

16 hours ago, Kcoop said:

do you think there is anyway I can find out what company he would of been in

Even with a service record it is difficult to get down to Company level, and even more difficult with Pioneers , as the diary shows they were organised into working parties.  I don't dismiss family stories and as Bill has said it is quite plausible he was working on a bridge, two named bridges are shown on the map Waterloo and Blackfriars.  Both would appear to be in the sector where the diary reports 'B' Company were working, but he and his comrades may just as easily been directed to support the RE which would put him in 'C'. 

[Kcoop]

5 hours ago, kenf48 said:

 

Even with a service record it is difficult to get down to Company level, and even more difficult with Pioneers , as the diary shows they were organised into working parties.  I don't dismiss family stories and as Bill has said it is quite plausible he was working on a bridge, two named bridges are shown on the map Waterloo and Blackfriars.  Both would appear to be in the sector where the diary reports 'B' Company were working, but he and his comrades may just as easily been directed to support the RE which would put him in 'C'. 

I’m fairly certain he would of been in the A or B company as looking back earlier in the diary to when they arrived it said that upon landing they travelled to the rest camp before going to villas (I think I’ve spelt it right) where they were then joined by the C and D company so I imagine he would have had to of been sorted into A or B thank you for the information did you know if brothers were allowed to be in the same company. I know I’m clutching at straws but I know his brother was in the same battalion as him and he was in the A company so I’m wondering if Walter would have been put separate to him-thanks Kelly 

14 hours ago, WhiteStarLine said:

Hi Kelly, personally I find the story highly plausible.  The map Howard posted has every trench mentioned in the diary and at least 1 bridge (Waterloo bridge) nearby.  Chances are there would have been a few bridges where pioneers frequently worked in small work parties or even alone.  For one person to leave, come back and find the other dead would have been a sad, but not uncommon occurrence.

The other thing is that rather than this being a stray shell, it was more likely what is called "harassing fire".  A widely used technique ever since artillery ranges increased, targets were mapped and when the artillery was not directly supporting infantry, they would fire a few rounds on known crossroads, bridges, railways, routes with high traffic etc.  This was in the hope of disrupting anyone working on or passing by and perhaps to inflict damage on the road or bridge or rail.  The harassing fire targets could be well out of sight of the enemy, so they would fire a few rounds and move on.

The other aspect of the story that makes me believe it, is the fact that it has not been embellished.  Simply a sad tale of a man working on his own in a dangerous environment where a shell could be fired by an unseen enemy and perhaps not even heard by the victim.

Cheers, Bill

Thank you I’m also inclined to believe it but wasn’t sure thanks-Kelly