Private 85900 Bertram Leatherdale MGC

[Roly Hardy]

Hello all ,

Anybody know the location of the 21st Machine Gun Company march 1918, the man I'm researching is buried in Soissone cemetery france. 

Thanks 

[PRC]

27 minutes ago, Roly Hardy said:

Anybody know the location of the 21st Machine Gun Company march 1918, the man I'm researching is buried in Soissone cemetery france. 

Probably best to tell us who you are interested in - there was no 21st Machine Gun Company in the British Army in March 1918. The Commonwealth War Graves Commission get into all sorts of muddles with the Machine Gun Corps during this period following the switch from Company to Battalion organisation in the opening months of 1918.

Cheers,
Peter

[DavidOwen]

I get muddled with MGC units but 21 Battalion MGC war diary for March 1918 is here 21 Battalion Machine Gun Corps | The National Archives

[Roly Hardy]

41 minutes ago, PRC said:

Probably best to tell us who you are interested in - there was no 21st Machine Gun Company in the British Army in March 1918. The Commonwealth War Graves Commission get into all sorts of muddles with the Machine Gun Corps during this period following the switch from Company to Battalion organisation in the opening months of 1918.

Cheers,
Peter

Hello Peter,  I'll get the details right first, he was Private Bertram Leatherdale 85900, date of death 31/5/1918, buried at Sissonne cemetery . That's all I know about him thanks

[PRC]

The Commonwealth War Graves Commission database has him as 21st Battalion, which is the Machine Gun Corps unit attached to the 21st Division. There is a concentration report in his CWGC webpage showing his body was recovered from a German Cemetery at Asfeld La Ville in 1925. The same location also gave up named graves of soldiers of the 7th and 8th Leicesters who died on the same day, and a man of the 15th DLI. On the following day there is a man of the 1st Lincolns.  https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/3071159/b-leatherdale/

The CWGC page for the Sissonne British Cemetery adds under history "The British Cemetery was made after the Armistice by the concentration of graves from the nearby Chemin-des-Dames battlefield and from the following smaller burial grounds and German military cemeteries:-

AGUILCOURT OLD COMMUNAL CEMETERY, AMIFONTAINE, ARDON, ASFELD-LA-VILLE, DIZY-LE-GROS, LA MALMAISON, LAPPION, MENNEVILLE, MONTAIGU, MONTCORNET, MORLOT and VESLUD GERMAN CEMETERIES; ATHIES-SOUS-LAON and ROUCY FRENCH MILITARY CEMETERIES, CHAMBRY and NEUFCHATEL COMMUNAL CEMETERY GERMAN EXTENSIONS; and TROYON CHURCHYARD (Aisne)." https://www.cwgc.org/visit-us/find-cemeteries-memorials/cemetery-details/2095903/sissonne-british-cemetery/

The 7th & 8th Leicesters, the 15th DLI and 1st Lincolns were all part of the 21st Division. The 21st Battalion, MGC was created on the 24th February 1918 from the 62nd M.G. Company, 64th M.G Company, 110th M.G. Company and the 237th M.G. Company of the Machine Gun Corps. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/21st-division/

The 21st Battalion Machine Gun Corps War Diary can be downloaded for free from the National Archive if you log in with your account. The relevant page of the National Archive Catalogue is here - https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353142

Alternatively it can be viewed in the Military Records on Ancestry.

Typically those old Companies were renamed A, B, C, D and so by identifying a mans' Company in the new arrangement, it can be possible to have a good guess at which Company he served with previously. The opening entries in the Battalion War Diary may even make it explicit.

If it helps with context of the period when Bertram died the Regimental History of the Lincolnshire Regiment can be seen online at Archive Org.  The 1st Battalions involvement in the battles of this period starts here https://archive.org/details/TheHistoryOfTheLincolnshireRegiment1914-1918/page/n345/mode/2up

Note Private Leatherdale is recorded on Soldiers Died in the Great War as Died of Wounds. As the indications are that he died in a German Medical facility, a check shows that he does indeed have records at the Internationational Committee of the Red Cross. He had two separate record cards, but looks like the information has been consolidated on to this one where he is recorded serving with A Company. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/314572/3/2/

Unfortunately neither report from the German authorities, (the PA references on the card), gives a date of capture.

Hope that helps,
Peter

Edited 8 March by PRC
Typos

[Mark1959]

Findmypast has numerous pages of his service papers. No doubt so does Ancestry. This has him wounded on 27/5/18 and n0 further report. Then "Missing" As the grandeguerre has the date 31/5/18 and a cross I presume that is actual DoD. So probably in German hands 27th to 31st

The records are under Bertie or Bert not Bertram

[Roly Hardy]

35 minutes ago, PRC said:

The Commonwealth War Graves Commission database has him as 21st Battalion, which is the Machine Gun Corps unit attached to the 21st Division. There is a concentration report in his CWGC webpage showing his body was recovered from a German Cemetery at Asfeld La Ville in 1925. The same location also gave up named graves of soldiers of the 7th and 8th Leicesters who died on the same day, and a man of the 15th DLI. On the following day there is a man of the 1st Lincolns.  https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/3071159/b-leatherdale/

The CWGC page for the Sissonne British Cemetery adds under history "The British Cemetery was made after the Armistice by the concentration of graves from the nearby Chemin-des-Dames battlefield and from the following smaller burial grounds and German military cemeteries:-

AGUILCOURT OLD COMMUNAL CEMETERY, AMIFONTAINE, ARDON, ASFELD-LA-VILLE, DIZY-LE-GROS, LA MALMAISON, LAPPION, MENNEVILLE, MONTAIGU, MONTCORNET, MORLOT and VESLUD GERMAN CEMETERIES; ATHIES-SOUS-LAON and ROUCY FRENCH MILITARY CEMETERIES, CHAMBRY and NEUFCHATEL COMMUNAL CEMETERY GERMAN EXTENSIONS; and TROYON CHURCHYARD (Aisne)." https://www.cwgc.org/visit-us/find-cemeteries-memorials/cemetery-details/2095903/sissonne-british-cemetery/

The 7th & 8th Leicesters, the 15th DLI and 1st Lincolns were all part of the 21st Division. The 21st Battalion, MGC was created on the 24th February 1918 from the 62nd M.G. Company, 64th M.G Company, 110th M.G. Company and the 237th M.G. Company of the Machine Gun Corps. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/21st-division/

The 21st Battalion Machine Gun Corps War Diary can be downloaded for free from the National Archive if you log in with your account. The relevant page of the National Archive Catalogue is here - https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353142

Alternatively it can be viewed in the Military Records on Ancestry.

Typically those old Companies were renamed A, B, C, D and so by identifying a mans' Company in the new arrangement, it can be possible to have a good guess at which Company he served with previously. The opening entries in the Battalion War Diary may even make it explicit.

If it helps with context of the period when Bertram died the Regimental History of the Lincolnshire Regiment can be seen online at Archive Org.  The 1st Battalions involvement in the battles of this period starts here https://archive.org/details/TheHistoryOfTheLincolnshireRegiment1914-1918/page/n345/mode/2up

Note Private Leatherdale is recorded on Soldiers Died in the Great War as Died of Wounds. As the indications are that he died in a German Medical facility, a check shows that he does indeed have records at the Internationational Committee of the Red Cross. He had two separate record cards, but looks like the information has been consolidated on to this one where he is recorded serving with A Company. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/314572/3/2/

Unfortunately neither report from the German authorities, (the PA references on the card), gives a date of capture.

Hope that helps,
Peter

Well Peter, I didn't expect anything like that,  how you found all this out is brilliant thank you so much I really appreciate it thanks again, superb mate 

12 minutes ago, Mark1959 said:

Findmypast has numerous pages of his service papers. No doubt so does Ancestry. This has him wounded on 27/5/18 and n0 further report. Then "Missing" As the grandeguerre has the date 31/5/18 and a cross I presume that is actual DoD. So probably in German hands 27th to 31st

The records are under Bertie or Bert not Bertram

Hi Mark thank you very much I really appreciate it great stuff 

[Roly Hardy]

On 08/03/2024 at 10:55, DavidOwen said:

I get muddled with MGC units but 21 Battalion MGC war diary for March 1918 is here 21 Battalion Machine Gun Corps | The National Archives

Thank you very much