Northumberland Fusiliers

[LindaM]

Hi all, would appreciate your comments regarding the following:

Does anyone know when prefix numbering ended for the 24th/25th/26th/27th Northumberland Fusiliers?  Would it have been when the battalion reached full strength or was there a cut off date later on?

Also what was the numbering system after this time?  In particular I am interested when the numbering system started with five digits 425** .

Interestingly looking at those numbered from 42500 (and possibly before) to 42523 all have some rank other than Private is that of significance?

Some of the men with the oriignal prefix despite seemingly being in the same Regiment have been issued a new number?  e.g. Thomas Walton 24/917 24th N. Fus changed to 42490 24th N. Fus. any idea why? (n.b. there is a service record for Thomas which someone may be able to decipher better than myself as it states he attested with the Tyneside Irish 24th then later changes it to Northumberland Fusiliers 24th which I thought was the same regiment)

The reason I am asking is I am researching George Henry Moroney 42516.  I am trying to work out when he joined the 25th North Fus.  He certainly was with them by the end of July 1916 because his marriage certificate shows him being with the Northumberlands his rank being Corporal at that time.  He did have previous military experience having been in the territorials until June of 1912 with the 4th West Riding Regiment.  He also received his mobilisation letter and embodiment form but unfortunately no record has remains of what happened next. 

He did not however have the silver war badge so did not go to France before January of 1916.  Though I am aware that the 25th Northumberlands did not go to France until the 11th January 1916.  A separate man Joseph Farley 42493 record states he enlisted 12th January 1915

I am aware from John Sheen's book on the subject that NCO's were being requested to sign up with the Tyneside Irish, including those from the Territorial Force.  They were asked to get consent from their commanding officer to basically switch regiments.  George was Irish so I am wondering whether this could be the case and that would explain the amount of NCO's being given a block of numbers?  Any idea what the time frame of this particular call up was?  
 

Sorry for the long rambling post.  At the present my brain is scrambled with more questions than answers.  Any help or suggestions would be appreciated.

[RussT]

Not having a silver war badge has nothing to do whatsoever with not going to France before January 1916.

Regards

Russ

[LindaM]

Thank you Russ I think I got mixed up there.  I meant he did not have the 1914-1915 star.

Regards

Linda

[RussT]

I'm out at the moment. If nobody follows up with some help, I'll provide some answers later.

Good luck

Russ.

[LindaM]

Thank you much appreciated.

[RussT]

Full strength for a Battalion was circa 1000 men but there were plenty of drops outs along the way in attempting to reach complement. Plus these Battalions were often asked to form a Reserve Company - so a further circa 250 men was raised per Battalion, which later formed the nucleus of the first Reserve Battalions servicing the needs of these Pals type Battalions.

It's not surprising therefore to see men numbered with numbers far greater than circa e.g. 24/1000. Indeed, there is a man with the number 24/1709 which is the highest number I found after a very quick search for that particular Battalion.

These Pals type Battalions were raised all over the country by local worthies. They invariably had to adopt their own numbering system rather than the numbering systems already being used by the existing Regular Battalions and war-raised Service (Kitchener) Battalions of the same Regiment. The NF raised many such Battalions and were also one of the very few Regiments that tried rigorously to apply the Battalion prefix principle to help differentiate men having the same nominal number - hence you could, in principle, have different men numbered as 20/100, 21/100, 22/100, 23/100, 24/100, 25/100, 26/100, 27/100, 29/100, 30/100, 33/100 and 34/100 covering all the Tyneside Scottish, Tyneside Irish and the their Reserve Battalions.

I think the other NF Battalions used the NF Regular numbering system so there shouldn't be duplicate numbers for men in those Battalions although those numbers were also prefixed by their respective Battalion numbers. There was also the TF Battalions, all of which had their own numbering systems and unique prefix numbers.

The whole thing was a complete mess, which I think went towards the eventual adoption of the single NF numbering system of which the 425** range was included. I'm not sure at what date this happened - you would need to look at service records. There was also I believe an eventual requirement for Regiments to drop the Battalion number prefix otherwise it might give Order of Battle information to the enemy when e.g. a man was captured and/or listed in the press as casualty.

9 hours ago, LindaM said:

Interestingly looking at those numbered from 42500 (and possibly before) to 42523 all have some rank other than Private is that of significance?

I think this is likely to be a coincidence. Sometimes, when a group of men were transferred to a new Regiment and they were all re-numbered together the higher ranks might be re-numbered first. This could be an example of this but I'm not convinced.

9 hours ago, LindaM said:

Some of the men with the oriignal prefix despite seemingly being in the same Regiment have been issued a new number?  e.g. Thomas Walton 24/917 24th N. Fus changed to 42490 24th N. Fus. any idea why? (n.b. there is a service record for Thomas which someone may be able to decipher better than myself as it states he attested with the Tyneside Irish 24th then later changes it to Northumberland Fusiliers 24th which I thought was the same regiment)

I haven't looked at his Record in detail but what you can see is that he originally joined the 24th NF as 24/917 but was then evidently injured or sick whereupon after his recovery he joined the 85th Training Reserve Battalion and was later posted back to his old Battalion, the 24th NF. Whilst there seems to be some uncertainty as to whether he was posted, attached or transferred at this time, I think it is likely that this series of moves precipitated the allotment of the new NF number of 42490 for him.

I hope that's a useful start for you - the NF numbering system is I think the most cumbersome/messy example so you are brave to take it on !

I'll have a look at 42516 Moroney later.

Regards

Russ

[RussT]

With regards to 42516 George Henry Moroney NF, it now seems clear to me that he belonged to a group of men who were sent from the 85th Training Reserve Battalion (Hornsea) in the UK to the BEF on 17/10/1916 - specifically to No 31 Infantry Base Depot (31/IBD at Etaples) where they were re-numbered with these 424xx and 425xx NF numbers and assigned to the various Battalions of the Tyneside Scottish (TS) and Tyneside Irish (TI).

85/TRB came into existence on 01/09/1916 and was earlier the 30th (Reserve) Battalion of the NF which in turn was formed in July 1915 from Depot Companies of Tyneside Irish Battalions. This naturally explains why many of these men with these 424xx and 425xx numbers had previous NF numbers with the relevant Battalion prefix as you had found for Thomas Walton who was 24/917 and later to 42490 (having passed via 85/TRB as per my earlier post)

Other examples: 42486 Joseph Whittaker was earlier 27/1283 and 42499 Ernest Watson was also a previous NF member although I can't spot his number on his record.

These men were being posted to the 30th NF (and then later the 85/TRB) either having returned from overseas following some sickness or wounding or were men posted to the 30th NF (and then 85/TRB) from surplus men in the TI Service Battalions when the 30th NF was formed. Men in the former category accounts for the fact that some men with these 424xx and 425xx number series have their earlier NF Battalion prefixed numbers on the Medal Roll.

It now becomes fairly self-evident that Moroney must have been with the 30th/Bn NF and he too might have previously been in one of the TI Battalions before being posted to the 30th, from where he eventually transferred with the whole of the 30th NF to the 85/TRB - before also going to 31/IBD in October 1916 to be then re-numbered as 42516 for service in the 25/NF.

Examination of his Soldiers' Effects Record tells us 2 things. Firstly, he was awarded a £4 War Gratuity - which tells us he had less than 12 months service when he died - so he enlisted no earlier than April 1916. Secondly, it tells us he Died of Wounds in 30th Casualty Clearing Station (CCS), which is where Aubigny Communal Cemetery Extension is now located and where he lies.

I noted that the Record of 42499 Ernest Watson was evacuated to the 30/CCS on 09/04/1917, a day before Moroney died of wounds there - so they were probably involved in the same general action involving their Brigade/Division. The medical evacuation of Moroney might then be a further aspect of his service you might want to research.

Regards

Russ

 

 

[LindaM]

Thank you very much Russ that information is very useful for me.  I had no idea that the war gratuity is another evidence of length of service.  Looking at Thomas Walton's medical report it says he was sent to France on the 11th January 1916.  After being wounded he was returned to England.  So as you have pointed out he was attached to the Training Reserve Battalion.  Then his medical report says he was once more posted to France on the 17th October 1916.

If I may just ask you a couple more things.

George received a mobilization and embodiment form, presumably when war broke out in August of 1914.

Considering the other information you have kindly presented is this of any significance?  He finished his Territorial training in June of 1912 and there are no more entries after his four years of service.  

Also regarding the Gratuity payment for service completed.  Does this mean service completed abroad?  Or does it encompass any other training or service in the UK?

If indeed he enlisted in 1916 I assume this is when conscription came in?

Thank you once again for the information.  It will be very useful for me as I am writing a book about my family history.

Regards

Linda

 

[RussT]

I missed your earlier comment about his prior Territorial Force (TF) Service in the 4th Battalion The Duke of Wellington's West Riding Regiment (4/WRR).  I now realise that he has a few pages of Service Records during that time from where you have evidently found his embodiment (mobilisation) notice which would have been sent out to him on 5th August 1914 after the outbreak of the War when the whole of the TF were embodied.

He enlisted into the 4/WRR on 15th June 1908 and was allotted the original 4/WRR Service Number of 530. Note that the TF was formed (from the old Volunteer Force) in April 1908, so he was effectively one of the originals in the raising of that Battalion, which was based in Halifax - the town where he resided. As you probably know, the TF was a part-time auxiliary military force whose original intention was for home defence in time of a general war but which in the event also sent Battalions to engage overseas once the war was in full flow. Prior to the war, men in the TF would attend so many drills per year at their local Battalion Drill Hall as well as a week-long Annual Camp. You can see from his Record that he attended the annual camp in the summer of 1908, 1909, 1910 and 1911.

The standard Terms of Engagement in the TF was for 4 years after which a man could choose to re-engage on an annual basis. I'm convinced that the few pages of his TF Service Records are incomplete and many other pages one would expect to see are clearly missing. There is no mention of any service after his 1911 Annual Camp (which only covered circa 3 years of his 4 year engagement) and there are no entries with regards to an early discharge. To have received a mobilisation notice in August 1914 is also proof that he was still serving with the 4/WRR at the time. I have seen incomplete Service Records like this on numerous occasions - it's pure luck that he has any pages at all. I would therefore be confident to conclude that he not only served out his original 4 year term but he also went on to re-engage numerous times on an annual basis.

His original 4 years would have been complete in June 1912. Re-engagement for 1 further year would have taken him to June 1913, then re-engagement for another year to June 1914 and then yet another year would have taken him to an expected end date, believed at the time, to be June 1915. However, in August 1914 the war broke out and so he would now be obliged not only to serve out his 1 further year voluntary engagement (June 1914 to June 1915) but also an additional 1 added year which was a compulsory part of the TF Terms of Engagement in the event of a national emergency e.g. war. So that would take him to June 1916 after which he would have been discharged as time expired.

However, as you have correctly anticipated, by June 1916 military conscription was in full force and so he would have been effectively immediately called-up for service following his discharge. Men knew at the time this was going to happen and so they often tried to stay with their original Battalion/Regiment but this was not always possible. Either way, we now know that he would have joined the 30th (Reserve) Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers (number unknown) in circa June 1916 and shortly thereafter on 01/09/1916 the 85th TRB (number unknown) from where he was finally sent overseas on 17/10/1916 to 31/IBD (Etaples) and was transferred to the 25/NF and allotted the NF number 42516 together with a group of others in his draft from 85/TRB.

There is no evidence that he went overseas during his time with the 4/WRR. The 1/4th WRR went to France in April 1915 but he evidently didn't go for which there could be a number of reasons. When the 1/4th WRR left for France he would have then been either with the 2/4th WRR or the 3/4th WRR. The 2/4th WRR went to France in January 1917 but he had been discharged time expired from the WRR well before then of course in June 1916.

Anyway, this all now seems to be self-consistent with regards to his service and overall timeline of events.

You say in your post that the last entry in his WRR TF Service Record is June 1912 - I can't see that - can you post a link to it or post an image of it on this thread?

His War Gratuity is for his total service in the army both at home and overseas. The rate was higher if you served overseas and was higher the higher the rank. It seems to me that the £4 WG that he was awarded only covers his total time from June 1916 to his death. I think he (i.e. his NoK) should have received more for his time served in the 4/WRR from 05/08/1914 to circa June 1916 albeit this time was served at home. It seems his earlier WRR service had been "forgotten" for the purposes of the Gratuity payment. Where money is concerned some things never change!

Regards

Russ

 

 

[LindaM]

Thank you Russ for claifying things, everything you say makes sense.  I have looked again at George's record again and you are correct there is no entry for 1912.  So it does lead one to think there is information missing.  

I have been able to find some interesting information regarding the annual training camps George went on in newspapers of the time.  I have also discovered the drill hall used by the 4th Btn West Riding which is still standing and in good condition.  A building I have passed many times as I myself live in Halifax, but had no idea of its history. 

It is a shame his relatives did not get full recompense considering George died fighting for his country.  His wife actually died also just a few weeks later after giving birth to their first child.  So it is sad all round.  

It is a shame so many records have been destroyed, but it is an interesting excercise to try to fit it all together.  Thank you again for your time you have been most helpful.

Regards

Linda

[tullybrone]

Hi,

Forum member @Graham Stewart may be able to throw some light on the NF numbering issue you raise.

My gu Richard Keogh was an original enlistment in 4th TI December 1914. He was joined in early 1915 by his younger brother Thomas (27/1497). he had previous BEF service with South Irish Horse.

Tom was killed when a dugout was blown in - September 1916 - and Richard was badly injured. When he recovered from his injuries he was posted to 85 TRB at Hornsea before returning to France March 1917 and being posted to 2nd TI. Richard was KIA at Roclincourt, Arras 9th April 1917.

Despite passing through 85 TRB he retained his original 4th TI regimental number.

Steve

[RussT]

With regards to the 85/TRB, Moroney would have been allotted a number of the form TR/5/xxxxx.

You can find these TRB numbers for some of the other men in his draft:

42481 was formerly TR/5/61271

42505 was formerly TR/5/56396

42537 was formerly TR/5/57193 (and 29/714 NF before that) - although he was with the 84/TRB and earlier with the 29th (Reserve) Bn NF - so looks to be like a different draft.

6 minutes ago, tullybrone said:

may be able to throw some light on the NF numbering issue you raise

What issue it that?

Regards

Russ

[Matlock1418]

On 04/03/2024 at 10:36, LindaM said:

marriage certificate

Going a little bit off the thread's main thrust ...

Noting that it has previously been mentioned for War Gratuity purposes it would likely be worth also looking at his Register of Soldiers Effects entry to see who was his beneficiary(ies)

His pension records at WFA/Fold3 show his mother, Margaret MARONEY, 6 Fairfield Terrace, Shroggs Road, Halifax, received dependant's pension of 12/6 pw from 7-5-18 - There is also recorded Widow deceased.  The quantum of mother's award would typically match her prior dependance level.

His mother's pension claim seems to have become DEAD 14/3/27 [on or by - either remarried or dead would be the usual explanation]

M

Edited 6 March by Matlock1418
typo

[RussT]

On the basis of the article attached below, it seems George was one of 4 brothers who served. The article is primarily a report about his brother Thomas which appeared in the Halifax Guardian on 11/05/1918.

From the article we can confirm Thomas Moroney was 22751 of the 18th Battalion West Yorkshire Regiment who died on 03/05/1917 and who is commemorated on the Arras Memorial.

The article doesn't mention the forename of the brother who was a Lance Sergeant of the "West Ridings" killed 10/04/1917. But this must be George although they have his Regiment incorrect - as we now know from this thread he was indeed (originally) in the WRR but he was with the NF when he died. Don't believe everything you read in the newspapers.

With regards to the other two brothers mentioned, John & Patrick, I think that from the clues John is most likely to be 44171 of the 5th Battalion South Wales Borderers. The only clue to Patrick is that he was serving with a "Lancashire Regiment". There are too many Patrick Moroney's to choose from in the records, the article mentioning a "Lancashire Regiment" might be incorrect and even if it were correct he might have been transferred to a different Regiment/Corps later in his service.

Regards

Russ

(Image Courtesy FMP)

 

[RussT]

Here a good relevant example supporting some of the detail mentioned in an earlier post in regards to George's service in the 4/WRR and his TF re-engagements in 1912, 1913 and in 1914.

John William Gledhill attested into the 4/WRR on 01/06/1908 - a couple of weeks before George who attested on 15/06/1908. Gledhill was allotted the number 528 - George was allotted the number 530. They would have known each other for many years and were probably pals.

The first image is the relevant Army Form that summarises his original 4 years terms of engagement and the fact that he chose to re-engage on an annual basis in 1912, 1913 and 1914. The second image records the fact that he was discharged upon reaching his Termination of Engagement on 31/05/1916 (thus also accounting for the additional year of 1915/1916 that he was obliged to serve given the National Emergency whilst he was serving in the TF). This is what I described happening to George in an earlier post.

Unlike George, Gledhill served overseas with the 1/4th Bn WRR - he departed with the original 1/4th Battalion WRR to France on 15/04/1915 and his 1914/1915 Star Medal is named with his original 4/WRR number of 528. 

Gledhill's Service Record is not clear but it is evident that he managed to stay with the 4/WRR after his Termination of Engagement and even managed to keep his old number which became the 6-digit number of 200038 when the TF as a whole was re-numbered early 1917. The 4/WRR TF were re-numbered using the block of numbers 200001 to 240000. His very low number of 200038 reflects his early date of enlistment - it is evident there were only 37 other men who had a longer service history than Gledhill in the 4/WRR by the time they were re-numbered in 1917.

Gledhill's VM/BWM Medal Roll only records his 6-digit 4/WRR Number of 200038. This is further evidence that just because a soldier only has his 6-digit TF number on his VM/BWM Medal Roll then it does not necessarily mean the man never served overseas before the TF re-numbering took place in 1917 - something that is oft repeated on the Forum with apparent certainty. For completeness, Gledhill finished his service with the 1/5th Battalion of the WRR and was discharged as being unfit for further service as a result of wounds on 14/02/1919 (Silver War Badge refers).

Regards

Russ

 

[LindaM]

Thank you for all your input it is much appreciated.

Tullybrone - It is confusing when some men's number changed but others seemed to keep their original numbers but it just goes to show you cannot take anything for granted.

Russ - Regarding the 85/TRB numbers.  Do you think his number is simply lost with his missing documents?  I have re-read some of John Sheen's book on page 122 it does mention  reinforcements began to arrive during the latter part of July 1916 to the N. F. battalions of the 24th and 27th.  These 122 men were from the West Yorks Reg and Kings Own Yorks L.I.  Then further drafts arrived from the Duke of Wellington's arrived.  Would these have come directly from their regiments back home and then sent to Etaples base?  If so G Moroney married in Halifax on the 29th July 1916 so he would have arrived after that date.  It makes sense that men would want to get married before being posted abroad so their wives could at least benefit from a pension.

Regarding the newspaper article.  Yes it was George M mentioned incorrectly as being in the W.R's and John was indeed in the 5th South Wales borderers.  Thomas the oldest of the men being 39 when war broke out.  He enlisted in Halifax in January of 1915 and was sent to Malta as part of the 1st Garrison Battalion before serving with the 18th West Yorkshire Regiment.  Patrick lived in Rochdale so it was natural that he would end up in a Lancashire battallion.  His numbers were first 36041 and then 445362.  Fortunately his record has survived so I will hopefully be able to make sense of it.

John Gledhill's record is useful and does back up your claim of his records being incomplete so thank you for that. 

Do you think that George received his rank of Corporal with the 4th West Ridings?

Matlock - George died 10th April 1916.  His wife died on the 18th June 1916 from a retained placenta after giving birth to their first child.  George's father-in law seems to have received his War Gratuity.  His mother Margaret did die on the 7th March 1927, she was widowed in 1907 so that fits in with what you have said.   

 

[Matlock1418]

12 minutes ago, LindaM said:

His wife died on the 18th June 1916 from a retained placenta after giving birth to their first child. 

Did the child survive?

Just interested because I've not seen any mention/any obvious pension for a child - and if eligible their guardian could have had a claim until child was aged 16 as a 'motherless child' [which would be up to 1932, rather than the 1927 of their grandmother's death] ???

M

Edited 6 March by Matlock1418
clarify - I hope!

[LindaM]

Hi M I have found no evidence that the child survived.  A search on both the name Moroney and Hopkinson (mother's maiden name) around the time the child would have been born have come up blank.  At some time I will go down to my central library to check the 1921 census to see if a child of that age appears with either grandparent.  But considering what you have just said it looks doubtful.  So you have answered a question I had been asking myself.  Thanks.

[RussT]

7 hours ago, LindaM said:

Regarding the 85/TRB numbers.  Do you think his number is simply lost with his missing documents?

Given that he has no Service Records (following his WRR TF service), then a vast amount of military information, not just his 85/TRB number, has been lost about him. Note that although he would have been sent overseas from the 85/TRB to 31/IBD, there was no requirement to record his 85/TRB number on his Medal Roll (or indeed any other number he might have had whilst serving in in the UK) - the only requirement would be to record the number and unit of the first active service unit he was with in a theatre of war i.e. the 25th NF and his NF number i.e. 42516, which was allotted to him at 31/IBD from the available block of NF numbers at the satellite NF Regimental Records Office based at 31/IBD.

It was quite common for SDGW to record a man's Regimental details (including his number) which he had on enlistment. Some Regiments were rigorous in the recording of that information, some didn't record anything and some were quite variable in recording such details. NF fell into the latter group (unfortunately for us 100 years later in researching soldiers whose Service Records are now missing). It just so happens that George's SDGW entry does not have any information in that regards. So no help there - one can only make informed inferences by examining the Service Records of a man's contemporaries which I have done in this thread.

Originally, IBDs were set up e.g. at Etaples as each Division deployed overseas in order to serve the reinforcement needs of its numerated Division - so, for example, 31/IBD would serve the needs of the 31st Division. After the Battle of the Somme this became unwieldly and the IBDs were changed to serve the needs of a given Regiment (or sometimes more than one Regiment) which would have had many Battalions serving in numerous different Divisions. So from July 1916, 31/IBD began to serve the reinforcement needs of 17 different Battalions of the NF, including the 25th Battalion.

You mention drafts arriving at the NF Tyneside Irish Battalions at various times in July 1916, supposedly from other Regiments. This would have continued to happen for most months of the war. The 1916 Battle of the Somme was notorious for effectively destroying many of these Pals-type Battalions - the Tyneside Irish Brigade was not unique in that regard. Most Battalions were then in desperate need of reinforcements but it was simply not possible to meet these needs from the pool of newly trained recruits available at the respective UK-based parent Reserve Battalions of the same Regiment. From this time onward therefore it became increasingly very common for men to be transferred from one given Regimental Reserve Battalion, which had a temporary surplus of men, to a different Regiment which had an active service Battalion most in need of men at that moment in time. Those drafts would have been sent from the UK to the IBDs, most likely the 31/IBD in this example, for eventual transfer to the NF, allotted new NF numbers and then posted to whatever Battalion in the NF which needed men most. This was happening on a daily basis across the whole Army involving many 1000s of men - a fascinating subject in its own right.

This whole supply business was further streamlined by dissolving many of the Regimental Reserve Battalions in favour of the creation of the nationwide Training Reserve on 01/09/1916, in which 85/TRB was just one small part. When a man joined the TRB, either by being transferred from a Regimental Reserve Battalion or freshly recruited from civvy street, he would receive a TRB number (see the LLT for a list of number prefixes for each TRB). This TRB number was replaced by a Regimental number allotted to a man upon his arrival at an IBD - as explained earlier for Moroney when he was allotted his number of 42516 on 17/10/1916 at 31/IBD.

8 hours ago, LindaM said:

Patrick lived in Rochdale so it was natural that he would end up in a Lancashire battallion.  His numbers were first 36041 and then 445362.  Fortunately his record has survived so I will hopefully be able to make sense of it.

Thanks for that - so Lancashire Fusiliers (36041) and then the Labour Corps (445352) - if you need any help making sense of his Service Record then I would suggest you start a new thread for Patrick.

8 hours ago, LindaM said:

Do you think that George received his rank of Corporal with the 4th West Ridings?

All we know for certain is that he was a Private in the 4/WRR when he received his mobilisation papers in August 1914 and he ended up a Lance Sergeant by the time he died with the 25/NF in April 1917. So he was still a Private in the 4/WRR after 6 years service (1908 to 1914) and he didn't serve overseas. He was, it seems, retained at Home from August 1914 either with the 2/4th WRR or 3/4th WRR before his discharge in 1916. This time period witnessed the greatest mass increase in the Army's history and experienced men were in short supply to train the huge influx of new recruits. Given we know he must have had some aptitude (becoming a L/Sgt in the NF), then I would wager he would likely have made Corporal during his later time in the 4/WRR. After discharge in 1916 he would have lost that rank of course but I think he would have likely regained it soon after re-joining the Army. He was evidently being tried out as a Sergeant at the time (hence L/Sgt) but he never got the chance to gain that rank proper unfortunately.

Russ

[LindaM]

Thank you Russ for your time.  You have answered all my questions regarding George very clearly and in detail giving me a much better understanding of how things worked.  At some point I will look at Patrick's record and see what questions I may have regarding his record.

Thank you to everyone who has commented your input is much appreciated.