4th Battalion Black Watch

[Adam1041]

My Grandfather Pt William Harper 3492 was with the 4th Black Watch and went to France in February 1915. His wife had a baby in July that year (their sixth child). William was killed on the Somme in October 1916. I was hoping to find out if he had any home leave during that period. He had a very tragic life with his father dying three months before he was born. I would like to think that he at least managed to see his daughter before his demise.

[Michelle Young]

Welcome to the forum. I don’t have full paid access to Ancestry or to Find My Past which would see if he has extant service papers. You could also check the war diaries to see if other ranks going on home leave is mentioned, but he is unlikely to be mentioned by name. Diaries are free to download after free registration. 
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7356140

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354234

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354236

[Allan1892]

Unfortunately his service record has not survived -- over 60% of service records were destroyed during the bombing of London in WW2.

I have found a one page record depicting his widow's pension claim. (image courtesy of Find My Past)

[Tom Lang]

The following information has been taken from the War Diaries (Refs below) courtesy of The National Archives (TNA).

The 1/4th Battalion, Black Watch, left Dundee by train on 23 Feb 1915.
They embarked at Southampton on 24th, sailed on the 25th, arriving in Le Havre on 26 Feb 1915.

The 1/5th Battalion, Black Watch, was mobilized on 28 Jul 1914.
On 9 Oct 1914 half the Battalion left Broughty Ferry by train, and the other Half Battalion left by train from Dundee.
The Battalion reached Southampton on 10th Oct 1914; embarked on 1 Nov 1914 at Southampton; and disembarked on 2 Nov 1914 at Le Havre.

On 13 March 1916, 1/4th and 1/5th Battalions, Black Watch, were amalgamated to form the 4/5th Composite Battalion, Black Watch.

Details from the 1/4th Battalion formed 'A' & 'B' Coys, and Details from the 1/5th Battalion formed 'C' & 'D' Coys, of the 4/5th Battalion.

If your ancestor went to France in Feb 1915, the War Diary of the 1/4th Battalion confirms this.

If your ancestor was "killed on the Somme in October 1916", he would then have become part of the Composite 4/5th Battalion, and would have been in either 'A' or 'B' Coys of the Composite 4/5th.

That period (Oct 1916) of the 4th/5th War Diary is covered by WO/95/2591/3 at The National Archives.

If you are seeking to find the 'full' War Diary documents for the period of service of your ancestor, the TNA References you need for the full 4th Battalion and the 4th/5th Composite Battalion are:

1/4th Bn
----------
WO 95/3948/2   - 01 Feb 1915 to 31 Oct 1915
WO 95/2591/1   - 01 Nov 1915 to 31 Mar 1916

4/5th COMPOSITE Bn
-----------------------
WO 95/2591/3   - 01 Mar 1916 to 31 Mar 1918 *
WO 95/1937/1   - 01 May 1918 to 30 Apr 1919

It is highly unlikely that your ancestor is named in these Diaries, but you never know.

In a cursory glance through these files, I did not see his name.

Hope this helps.

Tom.

[dundeesown]

This is from the War Diary of the 4/5th,I hope you can see it ok.

if you are on face book come and have a look at my pages.

Dundee`s Own 4th Black Watch | Facebook

The 4/5th Battalion Black Watch in The Great War. | Facebook

[jflood]

On 09/03/2024 at 22:30, Tom Lang said:

The following information has been taken from the War Diaries (Refs below) courtesy of The National Archives (TNA).

The 1/4th Battalion, Black Watch, left Dundee by train on 23 Feb 1915.
They embarked at Southampton on 24th, sailed on the 25th, arriving in Le Havre on 26 Feb 1915.

The 1/5th Battalion, Black Watch, was mobilized on 28 Jul 1914.
On 9 Oct 1914 half the Battalion left Broughty Ferry by train, and the other Half Battalion left by train from Dundee.
The Battalion reached Southampton on 10th Oct 1914; embarked on 1 Nov 1914 at Southampton; and disembarked on 2 Nov 1914 at Le Havre.

On 13 March 1916, 1/4th and 1/5th Battalions, Black Watch, were amalgamated to form the 4/5th Composite Battalion, Black Watch.

Details from the 1/4th Battalion formed 'A' & 'B' Coys, and Details from the 1/5th Battalion formed 'C' & 'D' Coys, of the 4/5th Battalion.

If your ancestor went to France in Feb 1915, the War Diary of the 1/4th Battalion confirms this.

If your ancestor was "killed on the Somme in October 1916", he would then have become part of the Composite 4/5th Battalion, and would have been in either 'A' or 'B' Coys of the Composite 4/5th.

That period (Oct 1916) of the 4th/5th War Diary is covered by WO/95/2591/3 at The National Archives.

If you are seeking to find the 'full' War Diary documents for the period of service of your ancestor, the TNA References you need for the full 4th Battalion and the 4th/5th Composite Battalion are:

1/4th Bn
----------
WO 95/3948/2   - 01 Feb 1915 to 31 Oct 1915
WO 95/2591/1   - 01 Nov 1915 to 31 Mar 1916

4/5th COMPOSITE Bn
-----------------------
WO 95/2591/3   - 01 Mar 1916 to 31 Mar 1918 *
WO 95/1937/1   - 01 May 1918 to 30 Apr 1919

It is highly unlikely that your ancestor is named in these Diaries, but you never know.

In a cursory glance through these files, I did not see his name.

Hope this helps.

Tom.

Hi 

Great research.

A minor point,  not all 1/4 BW will have gone to 4/5 BW on amalgamation in March 1916.  Rather,  a number were despatched,  under Capt Edgar Boase,  to the rear where they formed the basis of drafts for BCR's for the composite Bn.  However they quickly became the source of drafts for all BW TF Bns on the Western Front.  Indeed,  Capt Boase and a number of 1/4 men  found themselves in 1/7 Bn BW.  It is conceivable that this chap might not have been with 4/5th but given the dates it is certainly possible

 

[Tom Lang]

On 02/03/2024 at 18:46, Adam1041 said:

My Grandfather Pt William Harper 3492 was with the 4th Black Watch and went to France in February 1915. His wife had a baby in July that year (their sixth child). William was killed on the Somme in October 1916. I was hoping to find out if he had any home leave during that period. He had a very tragic life with his father dying three months before he was born. I would like to think that he at least managed to see his daughter before his demise.

 

On 13/04/2024 at 03:10, jflood said:

Hi 

Great research.

A minor point,  not all 1/4 BW will have gone to 4/5 BW on amalgamation in March 1916.  Rather,  a number were despatched,  under Capt Edgar Boase,  to the rear where they formed the basis of drafts for BCR's for the composite Bn.  However they quickly became the source of drafts for all BW TF Bns on the Western Front.  Indeed,  Capt Boase and a number of 1/4 men  found themselves in 1/7 Bn BW.  It is conceivable that this chap might not have been with 4/5th but given the dates it is certainly possible

 

My earlier post was my attempt to explain the amalgamation of the 4th & 5th Battalions into the 4/5th.

@jflood is quite correct, and it highlights my feeble read of each Battalion's War Diary.

I have since taken time to transcribe BOTH War Diaries for the month of March, 1916.
Having taken more time, I can see the importance of better understanding the note from @jflood that "...a number were despatched,  under Capt Edgar Boase...".

I feel it necessary to show each page from each WD to help better explain the 'amalgamation'.
The number of pages for March, 1916, for the 4th Battalion is 11, and for the 5th Battalion it is 10.

I will post my transcription for the 4th Battalion first, then I'll post the 5th Battalion.
This will hopefully separate them, and hopefully prevent any confusion (because of similar information).

The WDs explain the formation of the "Composite Battalion" (to become the 4/5th Battalion) and the "4th/5th Black Watch First Reinforcements" (located at the Base Depot, Etaples).

[I have also transcribed the War Diary of the newly formed 4/5th Battalion, which extends from 16 to 31 Mar, 1916, but I have NOT included this.] 

It is worthy to note, that on 16 FEB 1916, the COs of the 4th and 5th Battalions met with the Adjutant General (Sir Neville McCready), when the 'amalgamation' of the Battalions was announced to them.   The AG is also quoted as saying that it should be placed on record that at the end of the War these two Battalions should go home as the 4th and the 5th Black Watch, and not as one Battalion [noted in the FEB WD of the 4th Bn].

@jflood I thank you for your post.

@Adam1041 I hope this may help in some small way in your search for information regarding your g/f Pte William Harper, 3492.

Kindest Regards,
Tom.

[Tom Lang]

This is my transcription of the War Diary for the partial month of March 1916, for the 4th Battalion, The BLACK WATCH.

It extends to 11 pages, but I think it is important to include all pages to provide some of the early background to the amalgamation with the 5th Battalion on 13 Mar, 1916.

I will follow this with the WD of the 5th Battalion, BLACK WATCH.

Tom.

[Tom Lang]

This is my transcription of the War Diary for the partial month of March 1916, for the 5th Battalion, The BLACK WATCH.

It extends to 10 pages, but I think it is important to include all pages to provide some of the early background to the amalgamation with the 4th Battalion on 13 Mar, 1916.

Tom.

[davidda16]

3492 Pte. William Harper, 4/5th Black Watch, was killed in action by a shell on 24 October 1916.
Harper was 35 years of age, married, with six children. His family lived in William Street, Dundee.
Before the war he was employed with Gilroy, Sons, & Co., Ltd.
Pte. William Harper is commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial, Somme, France.

DUNDEE SOLDIER KILLED. A Wife and six children are left to mourn the loss of Private William Harper, Black Watch.
Mrs Harper, who resides at 56 William Street, Dundee, has received official intimation of her husband’s death. An officer writing to her says: – We were going into the trenches when a shell landed in the centre of my platoon, killing four men and wounding three others. Your husband was highly respected in his platoon, and everyone had great praise for him. I have lost a good man by his death.
Deceased, who was 35 years of age, was previous to joining the Territorials shortly after the outbreak of war, employed with Gilroy, Sons, & Co., Ltd. The eldest of his children is 11 years and the youngest 15 months. The Courier, Thursday, 9 November 1916, 

Courtesy of Great War Dundee website

David

[battle of loos]

good evening,

I have find on Hill 70 to Loos this shoulder T5RH.

I search when this unit are coming to Loos.

If you are any information, thank's in advance.

regards

michel

[davidda16]

[Tom Lang]

For completeness, I have transcribed the War Diary (courtesy of TNA) of the 4/5th Bn, Black Watch, for the month of October, 1916.

This extends to 27 pages, which includes 7 Appendices and 2 WD pages of the 1/5th (Reinforcements) Battalion.

Appendix 5 is a detailed account of the operations on 14 Oct, 1916, at SCHWABEN Redoubt, and an Operation Trench Map.

Appendix 5 notes that "Casualties from the very start were heavy, especially amongst Officers".
It goes on "Amongst the leading two waves, this was caused by our own barrage"... "some of our shells bursting somewhere short about Point 27".
The Battalion reported this to Brigade by carrier pigeon, and were told that very little could be done as there were too many guns firing, and it could not be found which particular Battery or Batteries were firing short. [I wonder if there is a Barrage Map in the Brigade War Diary.]
3 Companies took part in the assault, and 1 Company was held in Reserve.
The next morning, of the 3 assaulting Companies, the WD notes "They only numbered about 35 all told".

Appendix 7 is a listing of the 'Congratulatory Messages' between the 'brass' giving the usual back-slapping of 'success'.

It is a revealing story of this 4/5th Bn, who were the amalgamation of the 4th and 5th Battalions, who through depletions and losses were amalgamated, then reduced to "about 35 all told".

I have attached all pages of the WD for October, 1916.
They speak for themselves.

Kindest Regards,
Tom.

[Michelle Young]

It’s been a while since @Adam1041 posted this. Perhaps they are unaware of the replies?