Where was Irish Command HQ in Dublin?

[CampbellBros]

Hi everyone, I'm trying to work out where the the Irish Command HQ was located in Dublin, as my great-grandfather was based there in 1920. I've frequently found simply "Parkgate" as the address, without any more specific info than that. I know that the Royal Barracks (now Collins Barracks) was on Parkgate, but I'm not convinced that was the location.

Other sources seem to suggest it was, at least for a time, in the Royal Hospital Kilmainham, nearby. Another source makes me suspect it may have been in what is now the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions, also nearby (it was certainly used as General HQ by the Irish National Army by 1923 at the latest). Neither of the latter are technically on Parkgate though, but very close.

Does anyone have the specific location, especially as it might relate to an address or building now? Maybe even a picture? Many thanks in advance for any help!

[FROGSMILE]

12 hours ago, CampbellBros said:

Hi everyone, I'm trying to work out where the the Irish Command HQ was located in Dublin, as my great-grandfather was based there in 1920. I've frequently found simply "Parkgate" as the address, without any more specific info than that. I know that the Royal Barracks (now Collins Barracks) was on Parkgate, but I'm not convinced that was the location.

Other sources seem to suggest it was, at least for a time, in the Royal Hospital Kilmainham, nearby. Another source makes me suspect it may have been in what is now the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions, also nearby (it was certainly used as General HQ by the Irish National Army by 1923 at the latest). Neither of the latter are technically on Parkgate though, but very close.

Does anyone have the specific location, especially as it might relate to an address or building now? Maybe even a picture? Many thanks in advance for any help!

It was at Parkgate in Phoenix Park.  Apparently in a building (the Royal Infirmary) on Infirmary Road.  It later became the headquarters of the Irish Army.

The headquarters were taken over by the Irish Free State Army (on Sunday 17th Dec 1922) under one of the articles of the partition of Ireland agreement.

There is some contradictory information, with some sources saying that the building continued to function as a hospital during WW1, but others say that the medical facilities moved to a new hospital in 1910, and the building is mentioned elsewhere as the headquarters.  More research required as to the exact building where the GOCs offices, etc. were located if not in the infirmary building, which had great architectural presence and certainly looks the part.  See: https://www.archiseek.com/2010/1786-irish-army-headquarters-phoenix-park-dublin/

 

 

 

 

Edited 3 March by FROGSMILE

[CampbellBros]

Thanks!! So not Royal Hospital Kilmainham, which I’ve seen mentioned in some places? The second set of pictures you shared is now  the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions, which was one of my suspects. Do you know if the building in the other pictures is in the immediate vicinity or elsewhere by the park?

[FROGSMILE]

33 minutes ago, CampbellBros said:

Thanks!! So not Royal Hospital Kilmainham, which I’ve seen mentioned in some places? The second set of pictures you shared is now  the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions, which was one of my suspects. Do you know if the building in the other pictures is in the immediate vicinity or elsewhere by the park?

The other building became the Garda barracks, but I don’t know where in Phoenix Park it was located.

Personally I’m convinced that the Irish Command HQ was in the infirmary building.  I found it mentioned in a couple of places that it later became the Irish Army HQ and also found a phased hand over schedule in blue print, which showed the HQ building, located “in infirmary road”, was handed over on Sunday 17th December 1922.

Edited 2 March by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

 

See: https://iunva.ie/takeover-of-military-installations-in-dublin-during-dec-1922/

Edited 2 March by FROGSMILE

[CampbellBros]

Yeah I saw that but the language seemed ambiguous to me, as to whether it was referring to Irish Command, Red House, or both.

[FROGSMILE]

11 hours ago, CampbellBros said:

Yeah I saw that but the language seemed ambiguous to me, as to whether it was referring to Irish Command, Red House, or both.

I believe it’s both.  The ‘Royal Infirmary’ is one building and the ‘red house’ another.  Here’s a photo of the red house, which still stands.  They were adjacent.  The Royal Infirmary building would I think have been the location of all the principal Irish Command headquarters offices.

There seems to be clear mention of the headquarters as located in Infirmary road (factor 1) and clear mention of the Irish Army taking over the same building and using it later as their own headquarters (factor 2).  It seems unlikely to me that that just happens to be a coincidence.  Finally, the infirmary building is/was apparently famous architecturally, and has/had a grand main entrance and clock tower that gives it the real presence typical of a four star headquarters (factor 3).

Incidentally the headquarters is mentioned here too as in infirmary road, but the exact same photo appears elsewhere as supposedly the entrance to Wellington Barracks so it’s unclear which of those two captions is correct: https://independentarchives.photoshelter.com/image/I00001jtcnM2aXzg

Edited 3 March by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

From an article in JSTOR titled as follows I got the extract enclosed below.

The British Army Presence in Dublin

Henry Fairbrother

Dublin Historical Record, Vol. 70, No. 1 (Spring / Summer 2017), pp. 70-80 (11 pages)

https://www.jstor.org/stable/44985462

 

It states that the new (1909) hospital that replaced the Royal Infirmary subsequently became St Bricin’s Military Hospital.

 

Conclusion: I continue to hold the view that the old Royal Infirmary Building above was the location of Headquarters Irish Command during WW1 and until its handover to the Irish Free State Army.

 

Edited 3 March by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

There are a couple of references to HQ Irish Command being in the grounds of Kilmainham Hospital, as you mentioned in your opening post seeking assistance.  One reference is from the National Army Museum concerning the biography of a particular British general, and another is in a website concerning British military installations in Dublin.  See: https://www.majortweedy.com/british-army-dublin-400.html  However, the various regional command HQs were first established in 1902 and it seems possible that Kilmainham was the original location, but that given the evidence concerning the Royal Infirmary above, it moved to that building before the war, in “infirmary road”, which appears as a reference too often for it to be spurious.

“The headquarters for Irish Command (III Army Corps) was on the grounds of the Royal Kilmainham Hospital, a nursing home for destitute and infirm army pensioners. The officer commanding was General Francis W. Grenfell (Baron Grenfell of Kilvey). The five infantry battalions in Dublin were constituent units of the 13th Infantry Brigade, headquarters at Dublin Castle. That brigade was effectively the Dublin garrison. The officer commanding was Major-General William F. Vetch. Vetch's immediate superior was Major-General Gerald de Courcy Morton, general officer commanding the Dublin Army District (7th Infantry Division). The Dublin District headquarters was at Curragh Camp, County Kildare, 45 kilometers southwest of central Dublin.”

“Sources: War Office, General Annual Report on the British Army for the Year Ending 30th September, 1904, 1905, [Cd. 2268]; Hart’s Annual Army List, Militia List, and Yeomanry List”

Edited 3 March by FROGSMILE

[CampbellBros]

That’s what I saw too, which is why I was confused. Your explanation makes sense to me though. Thanks so much!

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, CampbellBros said:

That’s what I saw too, which is why I was confused. Your explanation makes sense to me though. Thanks so much!

I’m glad to help and I’ve found it an interesting investigation.  All the evidence points to the original headquarters being in Kilmainham, but then moving to the Royal Infirmary sometime between 1910 and 1914.  Perhaps because of the political upheaval and subsequent sensitivities in Irish history, and then the post partition relationship with Britain, these details have become if not lost then certainly obscured.

Edited 3 March by FROGSMILE

[CampbellBros]

Confirmed by the way, I just checked it out and with a fuzzy long-distance iPhone shot you can just about make out “Headquarters Irish Command” over the door (not sure if the upload will be good enough). Thanks again for the help!

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, CampbellBros said:

Confirmed by the way, I just checked it out and with a fuzzy long-distance iPhone shot you can just about make out “Headquarters Irish Command” over the door (not sure if the upload will be good enough). Thanks again for the help!

Fantastic, yes I can see it.  Thank you for the confirmation.  Even the National Army Museum in Britain, or at least contemporary staff there, don’t seem to have understood that the HQ ended up there.

[Jervis]

I looked into this a few years ago as I was confused too.
 

I think part of the confusion is the building is often referred to as “Parkgate”. But the building is not actually on nearby Parkgate street (it’s on infirmary road) and nor is the building actually called Parkgate. The other aspect is building itself is difficult to see behind big walls and trees, so it’s existence is unknown to many people. People have then attributed “Parkgate” to other nearby Military buildings. 

See Link here. 
 

The building is currently used as the office of the Directors of Public Prosecutions. 

Edited 4 March by Jervis

[FROGSMILE]

18 minutes ago, Jervis said:

I looked into this a few years ago as I was confused too.
 

I think part of the confusion is the building is often referred to as “Parkgate”. But the building is not actually on nearby Parkgate street (it’s on infirmary road) and nor is the building actually called Parkgate. The other aspect is building itself is difficult to see behind big walls and trees, so it’s existence is unknown to many people. People have then attributed “Parkgate” to other nearby Military buildings. 

See Link here. 
 

The building is currently used as the office of the Directors of Public Prosecutions. 

Yes it’s certainly been made as obscure as possible, albeit perhaps by accident rather than design.  If I thought they’d take any interest I’d write to the National Army Museum in London, but their contemporary obsession is inclusivity, decolonising history and black lives matter. 

[Jervis]

What would you like to see the National Army Museum to do? The building is still in active use and due to the nature of the work very likely to remain sealed off from the general public. 
 

It is interesting to note, that the 1916 rebellion was formally ended in this building, when Padraig Pearse signed the surrender document in the presence of General Maxwell. 

Jervis

 

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, Jervis said:

What would you like to see the National Army Museum to do? The building is still in active use and due to the nature of the work very likely to remain sealed off from the general public. 
 

It is interesting to note, that the 1916 rebellion was formally ended in this building, when Padraig Pearse signed the surrender document in the presence of General Maxwell. 

Jervis

 

Merely to acknowledge and record that the headquarters was located in that building during and after the war, nothing more than that.  At the moment all the very few references there (that I can find) mention only it’s initial home within Kilmainham.

Edited 4 March by FROGSMILE

[Jervis]

3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Merely to acknowledge and record that the headquarters was located in that building during and after the war, nothing more than that.  At the moment all the very few references there (that I can find) mention only it’s initial home within Kilmainham.

Agreed. It is a pity that it’s existence and part played in history has fallen in to general obscurity. 

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, Jervis said:

Agreed. It is a pity that it’s existence and part played in history has fallen in to general obscurity. 

Thank you for the information about the surrender, the building certainly has a significant place in history.  None of the references to the Royal Infirmary building, such as e.g. ‘Wikipedia’ and ‘Irish Buildings’, make any mention that it was HQ Irish Command and that such significant things as you’ve mentioned took place there.  That seems to me a significant omission from recorded history in terms of public information readily accessible.

Edited 4 March by FROGSMILE

[CampbellBros]

Given that it was the HQ of the British Army presence during the War of Independence one would certainly think that it would be better known as a location. That it would perhaps feature in related tours (I don’t know if it does, but I assume not), or that there might even be a sign in Phoenix Park opposite the building. I haven’t checked with any local authorities or archives here during my stay, which I probably should have done, but it is interesting that it’s not more prominent as a result of the role it played.

[FROGSMILE]

46 minutes ago, CampbellBros said:

Given that it was the HQ of the British Army presence during the War of Independence one would certainly think that it would be better known as a location. That it would perhaps feature in related tours (I don’t know if it does, but I assume not), or that there might even be a sign in Phoenix Park opposite the building. I haven’t checked with any local authorities or archives here during my stay, which I probably should have done, but it is interesting that it’s not more prominent as a result of the role it played.

There was so much sensitivity after the two wars in Ireland that had taken place in such quick succession, that when it was eventually all over it was perhaps felt necessary (for the process of healing the nation) to be quite ambivalent about buildings associated with the British government and its military forces.

Edited 4 March by FROGSMILE

[CampbellBros]

I agree with you up to a point, but the Easter Rising feels omnipresent in Dublin, with many dedicated signs and museums, so for that reason alone one would think it would feature (perhaps the shame of surrender counts against it?). The War of Independence also seems to feature firmly in museums, but less so in public locations, maybe for the reason you mentioned.

Something of an aside, though related, but my great-grandfather, who was stationed at HQ Irish Command (which started this whole search), was the nephew of the then Lord Chancellor of Ireland, James Campbell (later Lord Glenavy). Glenavy was a lifelong staunch Unionist, but basically saw the signs and eventually tried to find an accommodation with the rebels, which post-independence led to him becoming the first Chairman of the Irish Senate. He had the following to say on his election as chair:

[FROGSMILE]

14 minutes ago, CampbellBros said:

I agree with you up to a point, but the Easter Rising feels omnipresent in Dublin, with many dedicated signs and museums, so for that reason alone one would think it would feature (perhaps the shame of surrender counts against it?). The War of Independence also seems to feature firmly in museums, but less so in public locations, maybe for the reason you mentioned.

Something of an aside, though related, but my great-grandfather, who was stationed at HQ Irish Command (which started this whole search), was the nephew of the then Lord Chancellor of Ireland, James Campbell (later Lord Glenavy). Glenavy was a lifelong staunch Unionist, but basically saw the signs and eventually tried to find an accommodation with the rebels, which post-independence led to him becoming the first Chairman of the Irish Senate. He had the following to say on his election as chair:

Thank you, it’s very interesting to understand the connection and read of your great grandfather’s background and contribution to the restoration of peace.

I understood that there are plenty of sites connected with the Anglo/Irish conflict and when musing on the matter of the Royal Infirmary was thinking more about the bitterness of the Irish Civil War and that as the headquarters of the Free State Army whether there were perhaps things considered better forgotten.

Edited 4 March by FROGSMILE

[CampbellBros]

My limited impression is that you might be right. You see this quite noticeably at the Kilmainham Gaol museum, which substantially is a monument to Irish rebels against the British (as many were held and executed there), but which also features - in a small but surprisingly open and vulnerable way - the fact that it was also a location where a number of post-independence anti-Treaty fighters were held and executed by the Irish Free State, and the difficulties this created in dealing with the prison as a location for national memory. It fell into disrepair and wasn’t restored as a museum until the 60s I think.

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, CampbellBros said:

My limited impression is that you might be right. You see this quite noticeably at the Kilmainham Gaol museum, which substantially is a monument to Irish rebels against the British (as many were held and executed there), but which also features - in a small but surprisingly open and vulnerable way - the fact that it was also a location where a number of post-independence anti-Treaty fighters were held and executed by the Irish Free State, and the difficulties this created in dealing with the prison as a location for national memory. It fell into disrepair and wasn’t restored as a museum until the 60s I think.

Thar exemplifies very well what I had in mind.