RFC/RAF Aircrew Group 1918 Spring/Summer UK

[dustydog]

Well, we have a Group of RFC/RAF Pilots and Observers. In the warm spring or summer of 1918 in the UK as a best Guess.

Looking Left to Right.

Happy and smiling, all apart from One,(No.2) and dress shoes polished in new Sidcot suits, with gauntlets, and some goggles.

So just going up or just come down, some of them from flying. 

Summer because, the office windows of the 4x4 panes are open, and  the lower 4 panes being mottled, Grass being full and green.

Left to Right.

Top standing, 1?, 2?, (3, Lt, Act Capt/Major S.P Ball,) 4? , 5?,Observer.

Kneeling 6?, Lt. in RAF with two Very pistols.

Any help with names, date, Location.

Facial recognition, is not my forte, but No.2 is interesting! and tall.

Thanks for any help.

 

 

 

[dustydog]

Ok, If we look at the below. Are All these people the same person?

and what was the height of James McCudden?

 

James McCudden VC Photos PDF.pdf

 

 

[mickdavis]

On 02/03/2024 at 21:30, dustydog said:

Well, we have a Group of RFC/RAF Pilots and Observers. In the warm spring or summer of 1918 in the UK as a best Guess.

Looking Left to Right.

Happy and smiling, all apart from One,(No.2) and dress shoes polished in new Sidcot suits, with gauntlets, and some goggles.

So just going up or just come down, some of them from flying. 

Summer because, the office windows of the 4x4 panes are open, and  the lower 4 panes being mottled, Grass being full and green.

Left to Right.

Top standing, 1?, 2?, (3, Lt, Act Capt/Major S.P Ball,) 4? , 5?,Observer.

Kneeling 6?, Lt. in RAF with two Very pistols.

Any help with names, date, Location.

Facial recognition, is not my forte, but No.2 is interesting! and tall.

Thanks for any help.

 

 

 

It's impossible to say which shown is shown in the photo but it was a UK Training Depot Station. The building immediately behind the group of men is a Flight Group Commanders Office, three of which were provided at each TDS built with the 1918 pattern 15-bay GS shed - which is the building shown in the background.

[dustydog]

 

Many thanks, Mickdavis.

 

UK Training Depot Stations. Of which there are a few.

Between which dates would the 1918 pattern 15-bay GS shed be built? Looking solid brick built and newish.

also found this, so a bit of reading to do.

 

https://www.airfieldresearchgroup.org.uk/forum/airfield-discussion/1130-ww1-aerodromes-1918-list

 

 

[mickdavis]

That  list originally came, I think, from a Merseyside Aviation Society booklet on aerodromes of all periods. Without trying to sound too big-headed, the best reference is the Gazetteer of Flying Sites in the UK and Ireland, 1912 - 1920, produced  as a part-work in CCI and comprising c.180 pages of tabulations and site plans, with supplementary copies of contemporary quarter inch maps to show locations. Your interest in 39 TS and 45 TS suggests that you're looking at South Carlton, so I've attached the CCI tabulation for that station. Below is a list of the TDS that had t918 pattern 15-bay GS sheds:

 

1918 Pattern GS Sheds; 15-bay, 170 x 100ft (*Esavian folding doors)

Aldeburgh (4 as two coupled units*), Andover (7 as 3 coupled units + 1 ARS), Baldonnel (7 as 3 coupled units* + 1 ARS*), Beaulieu 4 as 2 coupled units), Bekesbourne (1), Bicester (7 as 3 coupled units* + 1 ARS*), Bircham Newton (7 as 3 coupled units + 1 ARS), Boscombe Down (7 as 3 coupled units + 1 ARS), Bracebridge (7 as 2 triple units* + 1 ARS), Brockworth (5 as 2 coupled + 1 ARS), Brooklands (7 as 1 triple and 2 coupled units), Buckminster (7  as 1 triple and 2 coupled units), Catterick (2 as a coupled unit*),  Collinstown (7 as 3 coupled units* + 1 ARS*), Crail (7 as 3 coupled units + 1 ARS), Cramlington (2 as a coupled unit*), Croydon (2 as a coupled unit), Didsbury (6 as 2 triple units*), Duxford (7 as 3 coupled units* + 1 ARS*), Eastburn (7 as 3 coupled units* + 1 ARS), Eastleigh (4 as 2 coupled units), Easton-on-the Hill (7 as 3 coupled units* + 1 ARS*), Edzell (7 as 3 coupled units + 1 ARS), Feltham (12 as 4 triple units*), Feltwell (7 as 3 coupled units + 1 ARS), Ford Junction (7* as 3 coupled units + 1 ARS), Fowlmere (7 as 3 coupled units + 1 ARS), Gormanston (7 as 3 coupled units* + 1 ARS*), Gullane (7 as 3 coupled units* + 1 ARS*), Harpswell (4 as 2 coupled units), Hawkinge (8 as 2 triple + 1 coupled unit), Henlow (2 as a coupled unit), Hucknall (7 as 3 coupled units + 1 ARS), Lake Down (7 as 3 coupled units + 1 ARS), Leeds (8 as 2 triple* and 1 coupled unit*), Leighterton (5 as 2 coupled units + 1 ARS), Leuchars (7 as 3 coupled units + 1 ARS*), London Colney (2 as a coupled unit), Lympne (6 as 3 coupled units), Marske (8 as 4 coupled units*), Martlesham Heath (1), Minchinhampton 4 as 2 coupled units), Montrose (2 as a coupled unit*, possibly not completed), Narborough (1), North Shotwick (7 as 3 coupled units + 1 ARS), Orfordness (1), Scopwick (7 as 3 coupled units + 1 ARS), Shrewsbury ( 6 as 3 coupled units), South Shotwick (9 as 3 triple units*), Stonehenge (7 as 3 coupled units + 1 ARS), Tallaght (7 as 3 coupled units* + 1 ARS*), Tangmere (7 as 3 coupled units + 1 ARS), Ternhill ( 1 ARS), Thetford (2 as a coupled unit, possibly not completed), Throwley (2 as a coupled unit), Upwood (4 as 1 triple and 1 single unit), Weston-on-the-Green (7 as 3 coupled units + 1 ARS), Witney (7 as 3 coupled units* + 1 ARS*), Wittering (7 as 3 coupled units + 1 ARS), Worthy Down (7 as 2 triple units + 1 ARS).

[dustydog]

Thanks for that. But the post I attached, was from, by Chris Baker. I was just trying to highlight there were a lot of TDS,s. Which I could hopefully narrow down to areas of interest.

Sorry if I lead you dow the wrong path.

I am trying to narrow down a date and which and where this Aerodrome may have been, given S.P Ball, and other's I can Identify from the photos without jumping too to many assumptions. Summerish , in the UK, Post April 1918 RAF and the introduction of the newer Uniforms, and rank badges.

I have too many loose ends with vague dates, instructor posting, 90 Squadron instigation, before being broken up etc. to make logical assumptions at the moment.

 

After doing a bit of trig, and Mr McCudden standing near to the prop hub of his SE 5, He was on the tall side in excess of 1.77m/ 5ft 8in.

 

 

[quemerford]

21 hours ago, dustydog said:

Ok, If we look at the below. Are All these people the same person?

and what was the height of James McCudden?

 

James McCudden VC Photos PDF.pdf 1.25 MB · 8 downloads

 

 

No. Plainly not. Even if you squint, the chap in your photo looks nothing like McCudden.

[dustydog]

9 hours ago, mickdavis said:

It's impossible to say which shown is shown in the photo but it was a UK Training Depot Station. The building immediately behind the group of men is a Flight Group Commanders Office, three of which were provided at each TDS built with the 1918 pattern 15-bay GS shed - which is the building shown in the background.

and would the building, behind the 1918 15-bay GS Shed, in the original photo be a double story repair Hanger type building.

see photo.

 

 

 

[mickdavis]

This, Old Sarum pic, is the earlier, 16-bay 1917 pattern brick GS  single ARS shed. The two outlying buildings were plane stores and were on the side of the shed away from the aerodrome. Flight Group Commander's offices were located centrally in front of coupled sheds on the aerodrome side of the building. In the North Shotwick image attached, h an office can be seen to the left of the shed.

[dustydog]

Nice shot of aerodrome buildings overview.

Looking at 90 Squadron locations 1918 from letters etc.

Shawbury

from https://www.ukairfieldguide.net/airfields/Shawbury

Military users: WW1: Army RFC      (Training Squadron Station)

HQ 29 Wing              5 TS AFC

9 TDS (Airco DH.9s/Avro 504s/BE.2es) (Training Depot Station)

10 TS  [Training Squadron]   (Sopwith Camels)

29 TS  (Sopwith Camels)

30 TS (Australian)   (Sopwith Camels)

67 TS  (Sopwith Camels)

90, 131 & 137 Sqdns   (BE.2s, DH4s, DH.6s, DH.9s, RE.8s and Avro 504Js & Ks)

HQ 29 Training Wing

Aircraft Repair Section Storage Depot

and from letters, 90 Squadron Locations/Bases were.

1918 Pattern GS Sheds; 15-bay, 170 x 100ft (*Esavian folding doors)

Brockworth (5 as 2 coupled + 1 ARS),

North Shotwick (7 as 3 coupled units + 1 ARS),

South Shotwick (9 as 3 triple units*),

Shrewsbury ( 6 as 3 coupled units),

From Letter.

90 squadron Shotwick 17th of January 1918 I am still a one and teaching people to fly it is very interesting work most of the pupils are Canadians and quite decent fellows had a horrible experience yesterday ice weather was very bad and we had to force landing owing to getting lost in the rain we landed near a big house the people were most kind and invited us in tea and to get warm by the fire I didn't want to leave.

 

Bell Hotel, Gloucester (no date) as you can see we have been shifted we are now at a perfectly new aerodrome quite near here with no machines hence no flying. A few days ago I was detailed to proceed to London to draw transport for the squadron I was given 26 drivers and another officer we drew the transport at a place called Hurst Park near Hampton court.

This Aerodrome would appear to be Brockworth.

 

BROCKWORTH: Civil company and military aerodrome

Military users: WW1:  Royal Air Force

90 Sqdn    1918 to 1919:

Aircraft Acceptance Park and Mobilisation Station

Operated by: WW1: Gloucestershire Aircraft Co. Ltd

Manufacturing: Gloster Aircraft Co

Location: 3nm SE of Gloucester

Period of operation: 1915 to 1920 initially? Soon after opened again until ?

Site area: WW1: 140 acres    1006x549    grass

Notes: On a 1930 Ordnance Survey Aviation Map BROCKWORTH is shown as being the only aerodrome in the County.

From Casuality Card for Capt S.P Ball. 16-8-1918, From 90 Squadron (Brockworth,  in faded script)

https://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/archive/ball-s.-sibbald

So this would take Capt Ball, through the Summer months with 90 Squadron, at Brockworth, which would tie in with the photo time frame.

 

 

 

[dustydog]

More RAF/RFC aircrew may be at the same time and place. Summer, 90 Squadron, Brockworth. May be not!

Mixed RFCx3 and RAFx6 pilots, all apparently Lieutenants/Flying Officers.

For further Mikedavis@, consideration. Thanks.

Building on the Left of photo, brick built shallow roof, interesting circular vents, (chimneys?), and 3x3 pane windows, with centre pane opening.

Building on the Right, telegraph pole, and tall double chimney breast 2 pots. 

Left to right, Pilot No.6  would appear to have just come off the bicycle in the background, and still wearing bicycle clips on right leg.

Any additional details, or confirmations welcomely recieved.

[mickdavis]

Here's site plans of Brockworth and North Shotwick. Brockworth was built as an Aircraft Acceptance Park, with 21 storage sheds, as seven triple units, in addition to its GS sheds.