EmilyRWard Posted 1 March Share Posted 1 March Hi there, I'm looking for any information on my great great Grandfather Gunner 614220 Thomas Sabin 2/1st (Warwick) Bty RHA and his brother George Sabin who served in the Royal Leicestershire Regiment. Both men were born in Warwick. I have some basic information from Ancestry and Find my past but was looking for any other information that may be available. Thank you in advance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin RussT Posted 1 March Admin Share Posted 1 March Welcome to the Forum ! 7 minutes ago, EmilyRWard said: and his brother George Sabin who served in the Royal Leicestershire Regiment. Just to note that at the time, the Leicestershire Regiment did not have the Royal honorific in their title. There is a 21308 George Sabin and there is a 20615 George Henry Sabin in the Leicestershire Regiment. Can you confirm which one he is? Or is he someone else entirely? Regards Russ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 1 March Share Posted 1 March 11 minutes ago, EmilyRWard said: my great great Grandfather Gunner 614220 Thomas Sabin 2/1st (Warwick) Bty RHA Welcome to GWF His CWGC entry https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/149100/t-sabin M His Military Medal entry in the London Gazette ... 614220 Gnr. T. Sabin, R.H.A. (Warwick). https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30287/supplement/9611 Perhaps one our member @Ivor Anderson can further assist with M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 1 March Share Posted 1 March (edited) A pension index card in favour of his children via their step-father Spr. Ernest John GARRETT, 1843187, Royal Engineers Image thanks to WFA/Fold3 The "IOW" indicates Issue Office Widows' That seven digit number for GARRETT indicates post-war service - His service record may still be available from the MoD or National Archive https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-records-of-service M Edited 1 March by Matlock1418 add link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmilyRWard Posted 1 March Author Share Posted 1 March 12 minutes ago, RussT said: Welcome to the Forum ! Just to note that at the time, the Leicestershire Regiment did not have the Royal honorific in their title. There is a 21308 George Sabin and there is a 20615 George Henry Sabin in the Leicestershire Regiment. Can you confirm which one he is? Or is he someone else entirely? Regards Russ Thank you Russ, apologies for that, I'm still trying to get my head around all the military talk and melting my brain in the process it seems! Its George Henry Sabin 20615. Thanks, Emily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmilyRWard Posted 1 March Author Share Posted 1 March 4 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said: A pension index card in favour of his children via their step-father Spr. Ernest John GARRETT, 1843187, Royal Engineers Image thanks to WFA/Fold3 The "IOW" indicates Issue Office Widows' That seven digit number for GARRETT indicates post-war service - His service record may still be available from the MoD or National Archive M This is brilliant, thank you so much. Ernest John Garrett has been another one I've been struggling for information on! And its great to have all this other information to look at, its hard knowing where is best to look for a novice like me so I really appreciate it! Emily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 1 March Share Posted 1 March (edited) 7 minutes ago, EmilyRWard said: George Henry Sabin 20615. George Henry Sabin 20615. Leicestershire Regt. MIC shows Landed France 29-12-15 = 1914-14 Star, BWM & VM plus Silver War Badge - Discharged 3-3-17 [so was unfit for further service] His disability pension index card Image thanks to WFA/Fold3 I think this disability pension was under the 1915 Royal Warrant M Edited 1 March by Matlock1418 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin RussT Posted 1 March Admin Share Posted 1 March Just to note that 614220 Sabin Died of Wounds whilst in the care of the 17th Casualty Clearing Station - and this is likely to be the reason why he is buried in Lijssenthoek Military Cemetery. Soldiers Died Great War (SDGW) and Soldiers' Effects Records (SER) refer. Regards Russ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 1 March Share Posted 1 March (edited) George Henry Sabin 20615. Leicestershire Regt. He died shortly after his discharge ... His dependants' pension index card Image thanks to WFA/Fold3 I would think this Phthisis Pulmonis [Pulmonary Tuberculosis] illness, aggravated by active service, explains his earlier discharge This card was the sad aftermath - his widow made an initial claim for a war pension for herself and for a pension allowance(s) for her child under the prevailing Royal Warrant [which in this case would initially have been the 1917 RW] - Article 11 [widow] and Article 12 [child(ren)]. Much is probably self-explanatory but a few interpretations for you and to help avoid mis-interpretations: This pension index card was in the soldier’s name and there typically would be another briefer card in the widow’s name so they could be cross-referenced/accessed. These came from/lead to a ledger page(s) via the claim case references and then to an awards file. Unfortunately, the initial ledger seems lost [probably destroyed] and the awards file also probably deliberately destroyed once its use was passed [as was the common case] Form 104-88 = Death notification of a married man sent from the man’s Record Office to the War Office. Form 104-76 = Declaration made by the Widow of a Soldier in support of claim to pension for herself and child(ren) Date of birth: 30.11.84 = his widow’s - required because her pension could be age-related/supplemented if she was >45 [which she obviously was not]. Such an age banding of pension is believed to address the less likely possibility of re-marriage with increasing age. The standard pension initially paid to his widow was 18/9 per week from 10.10.17 [there usually was an approx. six-month gap between death and paying of a pension - to allow six months for any confirmation of death and for calculation - but they were obvious quicker in this case of a death in the UK = 13/9 plus 5/- pw for her daughter] Child(ren)'s allowance(s) were paid to their mother, typically until they reached 16 when such payments ceased [occasionally up to 21 if they were in some form of further vocational training or sometimes if they had impairment/disability] - then the child(ren) would certainly be expected to go out to work to earn their keep. Or paid until the earlier death of a child. Hence their recorded dates. She also got £5 grant - a grant to cover urgent expenses arising from her husband's death - often for mourning dress [though not worn as much at that time of the war], sometimes for moving home [typically downsizing as she would no longer be expected to keep a home in the same level of comfort as her husband might have expected had he returned!] - commonly used for local newspaper death notice inserts [these quite often had a photo = so a good place to search, e.g at British Newspaper Archive or through Find my Past] N/N is thought to mean 'Noted for Novel' i.e. special treatment/calculation. S.A. means Separation Allowance - A portion of a soldier's pay which was matched by the government and sent to his dependants to make sure they were not left destitute while he was on active service. SA were often slightly more generous than pensions and children’s allowances because a wife had to maintain a home in the same level of comfort as before ready for her husband’s return whilst a widow did not have such a need and costs – after all, apparently, she could then cut back and down-size her home! Typically, the No. for whom SA is paid on the card reflected the number of children. I think the WCH938 was possibly a certificate identity number to allow for the collection of the pension and allowances from a Post Office - but I am rather more cautious about that. DEAD,1926 indicates the claim became dead eventually - likely because her child reached 16. This raises the question had his widow remarried [and lost her pension in favour of a one-off remarriage gratuity/bounty] or had she died by then ... You may know the answer?? The printer's marks at the bottom show the printing dates [8/16 & 6/1917] and large numbers [batches of 25,000] of these index cards sadly required to be used to help manually administer pensions using ledgers and files [by a small army of pension clerks, most of them female - No computers in those days!]. There a few other admin annotations relating to the cross-over from her husband's disability pension. I hope this has been of interest and added to your now developing knowledge of WW1 and its aftermath M Edited 1 March by Matlock1418 13/9 plus 5/- pw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 1 March Share Posted 1 March (edited) George Henry Sabin 20615. Leicestershire Regt. One thing that I seem to note is that he doesn't have a CWGC commemoration entry To my eye he would have qualified/should have qualified as his cause of death seems to have been aggravated by active service [TB was a common disease in the general population which could remain dormant until the stress of service caused it to develop further] - It is quite commonly the case that servicemen who died after discharge got missed by I/CWGC - I suspect a grieving widow with young family also had other things on her mind too. From CWGC: https://www.cwgc.org/media/0awj5vti/policy-eligibility-criteria-for-commemoration_march21.pdf Depending on what military records can be found [potentially/hopefully to show he was discharged due to TB] and it may be possible to make a case for submission to CWGC to get him commemorated ??? I haven't access to Ancestry or Find My Past but if you can find a service or medical record it may assist M Edit: CWGC have else where described me as "vociferous" when it comes to championing commemorating all those men who qualify for commemoration, and I am. If the notoriously fiscally-prudent/tight and routinely audited Ministry of Pensions could be pursuaded 100+ years ago to pay out the Nation's monies as a disability pension and then a dependant widow's & child's pension then I think CWGC should now accept that there was/is a case for commemoration - Unfortunately the CWGC are currently reluctant to do so unless a still extant military document or digital image of such can now be produced confirming the discharge condition matches the cause of death on a Death Certificate. I think CWGC are wrong to be so positioned. BTW a digital image of his DC is currently available for only £2.50 from the GRO. https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexes_search.asp SABIN, GEORGE HENRY 33 GRO Reference: 1917 D Quarter in WARWICK Volume 06D Page 723 Edited 2 March by Matlock1418 Edit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 1 March Share Posted 1 March 18 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said: DEAD,1926 indicates the claim became dead eventually - likely because her child reached 16. This raises the question had his widow remarried [and lost her pension in favour of a one-off remarriage gratuity/bounty] or had she died by then ... You may know the answer?? I'm going to make a guess that she had remarried Surname First name(s) Spouse District Vol Page Marriages Dec 1923 (>99%) Sabin Frances A Underwood Warwick 6d 1531 Underwood David Sabin Warwick 6d 1531 From FreeBMD ??? I'm sure you will correct me if I have taken too much of a punt. M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin RussT Posted 1 March Admin Share Posted 1 March The 2/1st Warwickshire Horse Artillery were a Territorial Force (TF) unit which first went overseas in June 1917 and which became B Battery of 126th Brigade RFA. I'm sure there will be War Diaries available which you can read. Perhaps he is mentioned. His £11 10s War Gratuity tells us he would have enlisted within a month of 12/02/1915 which is consistent with the man having the adjacent number 614221 who enlisted on 22/02/1915. I would suggest Thomas enlisted on the same day or very shortly thereafter. The TF were re-numbered with 6-digit numbers in early 1917 - before then he would have had a lower original number allotted to him upon enlistment - Thomas would have had a 3 digit number (that could be determined with a little effort). Given that the unit went overseas after the TF re-numbering took place, then his original TF number does not appear on his Medal Roll and, by extension, nor on his Medals. Regards Russ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian J Owen Posted 1 March Share Posted 1 March Hi Emily, your great great grandfather was awarded his Military Medal for his bravery on the 20th July 1917. It was this action in which my mother's two uncles were killed along with thirteen of there comrades, as I am away from my computer at present I will post more information for you tomorrow, Kind regards, Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin RussT Posted 1 March Admin Share Posted 1 March I "think" this should be the War Diary - free to download from TNA Army Troops. 126 Army Field Artillery Brigade. Note Diaries for July & Aug 1917; Mar &... | The National Archives It looks like the months of July and August 1917 are missing. Russ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian J Owen Posted 2 March Share Posted 2 March Good morning Russ & Emily, the months of July and August are missing from the diary at the National Archives. In an earlier post reference the 2/1st Warwickshire Royal Artillery the incident was found in the diary of the 51st (WO 95 2854/7), by David Porter. It is the War Diary of 51st Divisional Trench Mortar Batteries that has the detail missing in other reports. July 1 - 14, 1917 At Trois Tours? in Billets. Employed in making gun emplacements on Divisional sector C.14a.4.4 to C.15d.4.7 Reference Map ST. JULIEN Ed. 6a Working party from DAC attached from July 7, 1917 consisting of 50 OR Working party from 126 A.F.A. Bde. attached from July 8, 1917 consisting of 2 Officers and 72 OR July 15, 1917 Gun pits finished, firing commenced . . . . . . July 20, 1917 Billet hit by enemy shell causing 15 OR to be killed and 28 OR to be wounded, all casualties with the exception of 2 OR belonging to 126 A.F.A. Bde. July 21, 1917 Officers and men of 126 A.F.A. Bde. withdrawn. He was wounded on the 12th September 1917, I hope this helps, Kind regards, Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 2 March Share Posted 2 March (edited) From the post above - a great find. For our non-Atipodean members ... this commendation is well worth seeing without a crick in your neck Splendid stuff M Edited 2 March by Matlock1418 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian J Owen Posted 2 March Share Posted 2 March Good morning, sorry about that, and thank you for turning it up the correct way, Regards, Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Anderson Posted 2 March Share Posted 2 March (edited) Nothing for me to add re the MM, Brian has it very well covered via the war diary & citation! I've added a link to here on the British Medal Forum 'Military Medal Roll'. His MM index card image at TNA: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6216038 Edited 2 March by Ivor Anderson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian J Owen Posted 2 March Share Posted 2 March Hi all, I knew I had a photo of Thomas Sabin's head stone somewhere ,found it so I have now added it to the post, Regards, Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianshuter Posted 28 April Share Posted 28 April On 02/03/2024 at 08:42, Brian J Owen said: Good morning Russ & Emily, the months of July and August are missing from the diary at the National Archives. In an earlier post reference the 2/1st Warwickshire Royal Artillery the incident was found in the diary of the 51st (WO 95 2854/7), by David Porter. It is the War Diary of 51st Divisional Trench Mortar Batteries that has the detail missing in other reports. July 1 - 14, 1917 At Trois Tours? in Billets. Employed in making gun emplacements on Divisional sector C.14a.4.4 to C.15d.4.7 Reference Map ST. JULIEN Ed. 6a Working party from DAC attached from July 7, 1917 consisting of 50 OR Working party from 126 A.F.A. Bde. attached from July 8, 1917 consisting of 2 Officers and 72 OR July 15, 1917 Gun pits finished, firing commenced . . . . . . July 20, 1917 Billet hit by enemy shell causing 15 OR to be killed and 28 OR to be wounded, all casualties with the exception of 2 OR belonging to 126 A.F.A. Bde. July 21, 1917 Officers and men of 126 A.F.A. Bde. withdrawn. He was wounded on the 12th September 1917, I hope this helps, Kind regards, Brian Thanks for this Brian I am in the middle of researching Bombardier Arthur Keen who is named on the New Milverton War Memorial and was struggling to find the war diary. Also may I use photograph of the 2/1 Warwickshire RHA on the page - with of course the appropriate credit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianshuter Posted 28 April Share Posted 28 April On 01/03/2024 at 20:28, EmilyRWard said: Hi there, I'm looking for any information on my great great Grandfather Gunner 614220 Thomas Sabin 2/1st (Warwick) Bty RHA and his brother George Sabin who served in the Royal Leicestershire Regiment. Both men were born in Warwick. I have some basic information from Ancestry and Find my past but was looking for any other information that may be available. Thank you in advance Hi I don't see this mentioned and so don't know if you are already aware but they are both named on the War Memorial Plaque at Warwick (Emscote) All Saints church, https://www.swfhs.org.uk/index.php/war-memorial-transcriptions/war-memorial-transcritions-s-z/warwick-lodge-wm-2/warwick-allsaints-wm and also on the main memorial in Warwick - Eleanor Cross on the 1917 Panel At some stage, hopefully this year, I will be building memorial pages for them and will post the links here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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