Dr Meirion Hughes Posted 1 March Share Posted 1 March According to family recollections (in the 1950s), my great-uncle 'Ernie' was killed in Ireland during the Great War. Back then, one contemporary recalled that Ernie, as a new recruit, was in training at Kinmel Park Camp when his unit was deployed to Ireland to help quell the Easter Rising. His service record and medals' record have not survived. He is remembered on three war memorials in his home town of Rhyl (Clwyd), namely: the Rhyl Garden of Remembrance (WMR 7169); St Thomas's Church, (WMR 38247); and a plaque at the Royal Alexandra Hospital (WMR 36524). According to a findmypast search of the War Memorials Register, the transcript of Thomas Ernest's record asserts that he was a private in the Royal Field Artillery, but then goes on to describe his 'death and burial details' as: 'Circumstance: Other'. What might this expression mean? Might Ernie have been abducted by Fenian fighters - and then 'disappeared'? All suggestions welcome. With my sincere thanks, Meirion HUghes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mancpal Posted 1 March Share Posted 1 March Hello Meirion, Do you have a service number for him? As I’m sure you are aware with such a common name it would assist in pinpointing the right man. Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Meirion Hughes Posted 1 March Author Share Posted 1 March Hi Simon, big thanks for your interest. Unfortunately I included all the extant detail about Ernie in the Forum mail. Best, Meirion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbaraG Posted 1 March Share Posted 1 March Do you have any family details - mother, father etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 1 March Share Posted 1 March (edited) Some soldiers were killed in uniform whilst merely carrying out vehicle escort duties for things like collecting rations. Just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Others were assassinated during nights out, sometimes after having too much to drink. Some more were kidnapped and then killed subsequently, although that was a little more common for commissioned officers I think. As Barbara intimated, you really need to pin down his family background as a start point to tracing his military details and fate. Edited 1 March by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tawhiri Posted 1 March Share Posted 1 March (edited) I couldn't find an obvious candidate on the CWGC website, assuming that he was a serving soldier at the time of his death which means any death in service should have been recorded by the CWGC. I also looked at death registrations at both the GRO, which would have recorded deaths in England and Wales, and the Irish equivalent, and couldn't see an obvious match for an individual of this name of an age to be serving in WW1 between the years 1914 to 1922. As other's have intimated, more biographical information is required, starting with a birth year at the very least. Edited 1 March by Tawhiri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 1 March Share Posted 1 March 1 minute ago, Tawhiri said: I couldn't find an obvious candidate on the CWGC website, assuming that he was a serving soldier at the time of his death which means any death in service should have been recorded by the CWGC. I similarly looked at CWGC to no avail and then for possible dependant's pension claim at WFA/Fold3 and did not spot anything obvious either. A mother's, father's or widow's forename(s) might help [or any dependant's remarried surname(s)??]. M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 1 March Share Posted 1 March First name(s) Thomas Ernest Last name Jones Sex Male Age - Birth year - Service number - Death year 1914-18 Event date - Death and burial details Circumstance: Other Primary service (IWM reference) Service: Army (British) Rank: Private Unit: Royal Field Artillery Primary service as stated on memorial Service: Army (British) Rank: Private Unit: Royal Field Artillery Memorial Rhyl Garden of Remembrance (WMR 7169) Rhyl Clwyd Place Clwyd County - Country Wales Source website View the source website War First World War (1914-1918) Record set War Memorials Register Category Military, armed forces & conflict Subcategory First World War Collections from Great Britain, Wales © IWM (WMR-33525-816254 licenced to FindMyPast Reproduced, courtesy of FindMyPast, acknowledging Paragraphs 2 & 19 of their Terms & Conditions This is what is recorded for him on the Rhyl entry of the WMR, navigated to via FMP https://www.iwm.org.uk/memorials/name/631672 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 1 March Share Posted 1 March St Thomas's Church, (WMR 38247) https://www.iwm.org.uk/memorials/name/91821 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 1 March Share Posted 1 March Royal Alexandra Hospital (WMR 36524) PLAQUE ONE: 1923/ TO COMMEMORATE/ THE OPENING OF THIS HOSPITAL/ BY/ H.R.H. THE PRINCE OF WALES/ THIS PLAQUE WAS PRESENTED BY/ THE PRESIDENT PLAQUE TWO: 1914 - 1918/ TO RHYL'S GLORIOUS DEAD/ IN GRATITUDE AND PROUD REMEMBRANCE/ (NAMES)/ "DROS RYDDID COLLASANT EU GWAED" https://www.iwm.org.uk/memorials/name/194464 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tawhiri Posted 1 March Share Posted 1 March (edited) Having asked for a birth year, I notice that the OP did include the year 1883 in the thread title. Assuming that Thomas Ernest Jones was born in Rhyl, this was part of the Saint Asaph registration district at the time. That then gets us to this birth registered in the first quarter of 1884, which doesn't exclude the possibility of an actual birth in late 1883. JONES, THOMAS ERNEST Mother's maiden name: GRIFFITHS GRO Reference: 1884 M Quarter in SAINT ASAPH Volume 11B Page 305 So we are looking for the death of a Thomas Ernest Jones in his early 30's if he did indeed die around 1916. Edited 1 March by Tawhiri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Meirion Hughes Posted 1 March Author Share Posted 1 March 6 hours ago, BarbaraG said: Do you have any family details - mother, father etc. Hi Barbara, thank you for your post - and for your interest in TEJ. Yes I do have TEJ's family details: Son of George (b 1842) and Elizabeth Jones (b 1856). The parents lived at 24 Wellington Road Rhyl for at least thirty years (1881-1911). TEJ had an older brother, William G. (b 1879), and a younger brother, Robert Harold. (b 1890), my grandfather. TEJ was born of 3 March 1884. Best, Meirion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Meirion Hughes Posted 1 March Author Share Posted 1 March 2 hours ago, Tawhiri said: Having asked for a birth year, I notice that the OP did include the year 1883 in the thread title. Assuming that Thomas Ernest Jones was born in Rhyl, this was part of the Saint Asaph registration district at the time. That then gets us to this birth registered in the first quarter of 1884, which doesn't exclude the possibility of an actual birth in late 1883. JONES, THOMAS ERNEST Mother's maiden name: GRIFFITHS GRO Reference: 1884 M Quarter in SAINT ASAPH Volume 11B Page 305 So we are looking for the death of a Thomas Ernest Jones in his early 30's if he did indeed die around 1916. Hi Tawhiri, please accept my sincere thanks for joining the search for TEJ. There has been a great response to my post, so far. TEJ was born on 3 March 1884. Regards, Meirion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 1 March Share Posted 1 March There is a Thomas Edward Jones Private, 19124, Royal Welsh Fusiliers He was missing in action on 25 September 1915, and is commemorated on the Loos memorial by the CWGC. It would appear that he can be ruled out, as his father's name is Robert, residing at 6 Windsor Street, Rhyl. What I would say is: how would we know whether it is "this man" rather than the "person of interest" who is appearing on the memorials, given there will not be surviving extensive documentation for the memorials? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 1 March Share Posted 1 March 5735 Edward Thomas Jones, King's (Liverpool Regiment) is looking encouraging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Meirion Hughes Posted 1 March Author Share Posted 1 March 3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said: Some soldiers were killed in uniform whilst merely carrying out vehicle escort duties for things like collecting rations. Just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Others were assassinated during nights out, sometimes after having too much to drink. Some more were kidnapped and then killed subsequently, although that was a little more common for commissioned officers I think. As Barbara intimated, you really need to pin down his family background as a start point to tracing his military details and fate. Hi Frogsmile, yes, I tend to agree with you: that something 'unusual' happened to TEJ. But then, rven if he was off-duty having a few beers (unlikely in '16 Dublin) why didn't the military authorities record him as 'missing'? Best, Meirion Sincere thanks for your thoughts, Meirion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 1 March Share Posted 1 March His Medal Index Card makes no reference whatsoever to his demise. This pension card does, though. Image courtesy FindMyPast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 1 March Share Posted 1 March Just now, Dr Meirion Hughes said: Hi Frogsmile, yes, I tend to agree with you: that something 'unusual' happened to TEJ. But then, rven if he was off-duty having a few beers (unlikely in '16 Dublin) why didn't the military authorities record him as 'missing'? Best, Meirion Sincere thanks for your thoughts, Meirion As you have alluded to we simply don’t know yet what led to his demise, I was just giving some general examples to emphasise that it wasn’t all ambushes and conventional armed confrontations. Much of it became typical guerilla warfare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Meirion Hughes Posted 1 March Author Share Posted 1 March 8 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said: There is a Thomas Edward Jones Private, 19124, Royal Welsh Fusiliers He was missing in action on 25 September 1915, and is commemorated on the Loos memorial by the CWGC. It would appear that he can be ruled out, as his father's name is Robert, residing at 6 Windsor Street, Rhyl. What I would say is: how would we know whether it is "this man" rather than the "person of interest" who is appearing on the memorials, given there will not be surviving extensive documentation for the memorials? Hello Keith, and thank you. The soldier who was killed at Loos was T. Edward, not T. Ernest. All we really know is that my great-uncle was 'lost' in the Great War. Regards, Meirion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 1 March Share Posted 1 March He is commemorated at Thiepval, and it mentions the same address too, which is useful for navigating so many men named Jones https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/796629/edward-thomas-jones/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 1 March Share Posted 1 March (edited) 19 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said: 5735 Edward Thomas Jones, King's (Liverpool Regiment) is looking encouraging. 11 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said: His Medal Index Card makes no reference whatsoever to his demise. This pension card does, though. Image courtesy FindMyPast I suspect not the TEJ the OP is after - but I suppose possibly a brother or cousin?? M Edited 1 March by Matlock1418 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 1 March Share Posted 1 March I did a search of his full name, then "Rhyl", which resulted in two persons of interest appearing from the WFA ledger and card files. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tawhiri Posted 1 March Share Posted 1 March Just now, Keith_history_buff said: I did a search of his full name, then "Rhyl", which resulted in two persons of interest appearing from the WFA ledger and card files. I tried the same with just the surname Jones and the word Rhyl in the additional information section on the CWGC website, and while it turned up a number in individuals named Jones with a connection to Rhyl, none of them matched the information the OP has given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 1 March Share Posted 1 March Just now, Tawhiri said: I tried the same with just the surname Jones and the word Rhyl in the additional information section on the CWGC website, and while it turned up a number in individuals named Jones with a connection to Rhyl, none of them matched the information the OP has given. I went down that route [103 hits] to no avail for fatalities for a TEJ to match to OP. M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 1 March Share Posted 1 March Before I turn in, here is the medal index card to the fatality 5735 Edward T Jones. Image courtesy Fold3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now