How were they affixed? RNVR etc., Shoulder-boards

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Naval aficionas of the Great War Forum,

I have attached rank shoulder-boards of a Lt-Cdr., and a Lt., RNVR.

The latter has eyelets from which cords emerge - but how were these affixed to a shirt/uniform?

The Lt-Cdr rank shoulder-boards have neither eyelets or cords but were obviously somehow affixed during the War!

Help would be gratefully accepted, please.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[RNCVR]

@Kimberley John Lindsay    Hi Kim,

Hope you are well!

The LtCr RNVR shoulder baords might have been for his greatcoat, in which case they would have been sewn on.  The green cloth between the rank lace was for Electrical branch. He was an Electrical Officer.

The LieutRNVR  boards were for his white uniform & were attached to grommets on the shoulder of the white tunics, via those white laces. 

Best wishes, Bryan (Canada)

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Bryan,

I had not thought of the greatcoat/sewn on theory.  It certainly makes sense!

Thanks for tackling the obscure object in the first place.

As far as the "grommets" are concerned, I can envision the two ends of the cords being thread through these grommets - but then?

Were they shoe-lace-like affixed around the Button (the Button itself  having been anchored to the uniform with the split-pins which can just be seen in the scan)?

If so, it was a complicated, indeed, clumsy, procedure, leaving room for bits of cord being visible and so on. Hmmm.

Perhaps a "Naval Handbook" had pertinent drawings?

Kindest regards,

Kim.

 

[KizmeRD]

The Lieutenant RNVR epaulettes appear to have far less age to them than the Lt,Cdr’s - I’d go as far as saying that they are very likely identical to those issued to current day Sea Cadet Officers (post-1958) and the small ‘RNV’ buttons currently on the Lieutenants boards would be more authentic on the Lt.Cdr’s (if these were mine, then I’d switch them over).

MB

Edited 1 March by KizmeRD

[RNCVR]

2 hours ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

Dear Bryan,

I had not thought of the greatcoat/sewn on theory.  It certainly makes sense!

Thanks for tackling the obscure object in the first place.

As far as the "grommets" are concerned, I can envision the two ends of the cords being thread through these grommets - but then?

Were they shoe-lace-like affixed around the Button (the Button itself  having been anchored to the uniform with the split-pins which can just be seen in the scan)?

If so, it was a complicated, indeed, clumsy, procedure, leaving room for bits of cord being visible and so on. Hmmm.

Perhaps a "Naval Handbook" had pertinent drawings?

Kindest regards,

Kim.

 

Kim, I doubt the laces would be fastened around the split pin attachment.

I will try to explain further -  I have also had RN white tunics in my collection that had two holes pierced in the shoulder (sewn around the circumference so they would not fray with repeated washings) & the laces would be secured thru these two holes then tied inside the tunic prior to putting it on the wearer. Sometimes the tunic had both holes & a grommett, perhaps to attach the straps (if there was one) on the shoulder board.  That way the lace ends  would be hidden.  & the split pin at the top of the shoulder board(holding the button in place) would likely be fastened to a similar hole at the top end of the shoulder.

When I was in the RCN I had shoulder boards with two attachment straps integral to them, so they would go thru the gromments on the white tunics, thus no need for laces.

No idea if there was anythilng published on this subject, likely, but I dont know of a book(let).

[KizmeRD]

I always fastened my laces through the top button ring and tied-off with a bow. Don’t know whether this was the right way -  but couldn’t figure out any other to do it, and it worked just fine.

I’ll PM you with a few photos, if I can find my old boards, and maybe even a tropical shirt (somewhere).

MB

Edited 1 March by KizmeRD

[RNCVR]

 @KizmeRD   Would love to view the photos Kiz if you are able to locate them.   I dont have any as I have sold off all of my uniform collection a few yrs ago.

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear MB and Bryan,

I echo Bryan's wish to see scans, please, of your old shoulder boards and tropical shirt, the latter no doubt with "shoulder board accomodation". Super!

Many thanks also for your interest and much-needed help.

Although I am nearing 80, I still have Dad's tropical uniform jacket (2nd AIF Major, with MC ribbon), as well as my fairly numerous Officer medal collection, being loath to sell anything so painstakingly amassed.

Indeed I am trying to figure out a way to "take it with me".  Failing that, son Philip (daughter Clarissa is in Australia), has his own collection (WWII Jerrycans) in his Baden-Baden cellar!

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[wallace2]

I can confirm that this type of fixing was in use in the RN and RNR in 1993. 

Tropical shirts and jackets had a double yolk so the clip, which attached to the button loop and held the shoulder board in place, did not scrape the shoulder.

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear All, and wallace2,

Thanks for your continuing interest.

I must admit to still not  understanding how the cord was affixed, without the benefit of "drawings".

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[KizmeRD]

I’m searching the attic today, hopefully to find one of my old tropical shirts. (Assuming they haven’t already been thrown out).

If I can locate one, then l’ll will posts a few photos ASAP - given the level of interest that’s apparent.

MB

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear MB,

Many thanks for your highly appreciated efforts!

Your 'old tropical shirts' are historical!

For example: every time Dad was promoted in the Bank of NSW, we had to moves States (NSW to VIC; VIC to WA; WA to NSW). This meant "moving house" and each time, more and more "historical" AIF (grandfather, MC, ED) and 2AIF (Dad, MC, MiD) bits and pieces were thrown out!

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[KizmeRD]

Just returned from my scavenger hunt, and the only RN short sleeve white shirts that  I seem to have kept are the current issue (aircraft pilots style) ones that only take rank slides. Shame really, as the legitimate ‘Red Sea Rig’ shirts were made of far superior cotton.

Therefore speaking from memory only, what I can say is that the shirt had three small woven holes on the shoulder, two at the bottom and one at the top to take the small brass button (attached to the shoulder boards).

Remove the small spilt-pin from the brass button - push it through the top hole. Next take the white laces and thread them through the bottom holes, loop one of the laces through the small brass eyelet on the button at the top. Finally, tie-off the two laces in a bow, and you’re done.

Note the shirt has a double layer of cotton at the shoulder, rather like a hidden pocket, the button and laces pass through the holes in the top piece and sit between the two layers of cotton, so nothing touches the skin.

I think I only had one set of removable boards, they had to be taken off each time the shirt was washed, and could also be fitted to white cotton mess jacket, or tropical white uniform, in exactly the same way as described above. Officer’s great coats also had shoulder boards, but these were invariably sewn on by a naval tailor, so they were not ordinarily removable.

Apologies, no photos.

MB

Edited 3 March by KizmeRD

[wallace2]

A good and accurate description of how to fit shoulder boards.

BZ KismeRD.

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear All, and MB, 

Ah! Now I understand (at last). 

Many thanks for devilling me through this Naval shoulder-boards subject in true Great War Forum fashion.

The sheer expertise which lies, often dormant, only to be wakened by a click of the Mouse, is astounding. Thank you All, and MB.

Kindest regards,

Kim.