tankengine888 Posted 27 February Share Posted 27 February Hello! In my research of D Company, 53rd Battalion, I find that one of 'D' Coys CSM's was killed at Polygon Wood. His name was Frederick William Loney/Syer. A Red Cross report reads- 'Loney joined up in August 1914(,) wore the 'Rabaul' Ribbon, and was a CSM' What is the Rabaul ribbon? Perhaps he got the 1914 star ribbon [which, I doubt]? Zidane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin DavidOwen Posted 27 February Admin Share Posted 27 February Might it have something to do with this from Wikipedia? More on the Expeditionary Force here Australian Naval and Military Expeditionary Force - Wikipedia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TullochArd Posted 27 February Share Posted 27 February (edited) There's a good article on the operation Australian Naval and Military Expeditionary Force (ANMEF) here: The Capture of Rabaul and the Sydney/Emden Engagement, 1914 | Royal Australian Navy It seems Frederick William Loney/Syer may well have been one of the 1000 strong Infantry Battalion. Regarding the Rabaul ribbon there seems to be no official record or recognition but that's perhaps a similar tale and in line with the similar fuzzy history of the Gallipoli Star? Edited 27 February by TullochArd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteStarLine Posted 27 February Share Posted 27 February 1 hour ago, tankengine888 said: What is the Rabaul ribbon? Perhaps he got the 1914 star ribbon [which, I doubt]? Correct, that's the one. To be eligible for the 1914 star you effectively had to be at ANZAC or at the capture of German New Guinea (Rabaul). My grandfather was ineligible because his troopship mutinied just outside Port Moresby as the convoy made its way to Rabaul. However the 1st Tropical Battalion did capture Rabaul and were eligible. The 2nd Tropical Battalion (Kennedy Regiment) returned to Townsville and the award criteria deliberately commences 2 days after the Kennedy Regiment were back in Townvsille. If you know of Quinn's Post in Gallipoli, then Hugh Quinn was also in Port Moresby and returned to Townsville post-mutiny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 27 February Share Posted 27 February Looks like he served as Frederick William Loney, but was Frederick John Marvin Syer, commemorated by the CWGC on the Menin Gate, died 26 September 1917. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TullochArd Posted 27 February Share Posted 27 February 9 minutes ago, WhiteStarLine said: Correct, that's the one. To be eligible for the 1914 star ..... A small point but the 14 Star was specifically for service in France and Belgium ....... for completeness I believe the medal we are discussing here is the 14/15 Star ....... I acknowledge the reality of the identical ribbon bar. The 14/15 Star was issued for operations in the Australasian Campaign of 1914. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteStarLine Posted 27 February Share Posted 27 February Just now, TullochArd said: Regarding the Rabaul ribbon there seems to be no official record or recognition Does not sound right to me at all - I wonder if the term 'Rabaul ribbon' is slang for the 1914 1915 Star. He was fully entitled to this (I researched it years ago to see if my grandfather was eligible but he missed out by 2 days). The ANMEF who participated in the capture of Rabaul were eligible and this is documented in Army MO 117/19 – 8/3/19 Army Order XX of 23rd December, 1918, is published for information. XX. British Expeditionary Forces, 1914-15 - Grant of “1914-15 Star” 1. His Majesty the King, having been graciously pleased to recognise by the grant of a distinctive decoration the services rendered by His Majesty’s military forces in France and Belgium during the earlier phase of the war in 1914, His Majesty has been further pleased to recognise likewise the services rendered by others of His military forces who served in theatres of war between 5th August, 1914, and 31st December, 1915, both dates inclusive. 2. The decoration will be a Star in bronze. 3. No clasp will be issued with the Star. 4. The ribbon will be red, white, and blue, shaded and watered. Just now, TullochArd said: A small point but the 14 Star was specifically for service in France and Belgium Acknowledged, sorry my error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 27 February Share Posted 27 February The 1914-15 Star did not exist as a concept at the time of his death. I am wondering if there was some unofficial ribbon being worn by ANMEF veterans, proud of their involvement in combat since 1914, like the following, perhaps. https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C1265085 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TullochArd Posted 27 February Share Posted 27 February (edited) 42 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said: The 1914-15 Star did not exist as a concept at the time of his death. That's certainly right khb. Perhaps there are two possibilities: 1. Maybe the Red Cross report that Zidane uses is a well intentioned post War consolidation and summary of known facts which acknowledges prior service in the Australasian Campaign and assumes award of 14/15 Star? That said, "Wore the 'Raboul' ribbon" contradicts this. Also why is "Raboul" in quotation marks unless it is something rather unique and peculiar? 2. Maybe there is an unofficial ribbon somewhere in line with the Australian Gallipoli Medal and the private purchase "Flags of Many Nations" pre-issue Victory Medal ribbon popular with the Australians and discussed elsewhere. Over to Zidane. Edited 27 February by TullochArd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteStarLine Posted 27 February Share Posted 27 February This is intriguing. For anyone referencing possible service in the ANMEF (including me), there is no Loney or Syer on the ANMEF nominal roll. When he joined in August 1915, he stated Nil next to the question on previous military service. However, he had militia and Navy service and his 1914 1915 Star references the 1st Battalion. I give up!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tankengine888 Posted 27 February Author Share Posted 27 February 8 minutes ago, TullochArd said: Maybe the Red Cross report that Zidane uses is a well intentioned post War consolidation and summary of known facts which acknowledges prior service in the Australasian Campaign and assumes award of 14/15 Star? That said, "Wore the 'Raboul' ribbon" contradicts this. Also why is "Raboul" in quotation marks unless it is something rather unique and peculiar? Report dated March 11th, 1918 Rabaul is in Quotation marks already. See image below. 8 minutes ago, WhiteStarLine said: . However, he had militia and Navy service and his 1914 1915 Star references the 1st Battalion. I give up!!! He was CSM 53rd Battalion- 53rd was formed out of the 1st Battalion in the doubling of the AIF in 1916. And if anyone is trawling the AWM for the red cross file- it's here. https://s3-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/awm-media/collection/RCDIG1061736/document/5649615.PDF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteStarLine Posted 27 February Share Posted 27 February The National Archives of Australia have 2610 Frederick William Loney age as 21 years 9 months, dark hair and 5 feet 8 inches! Joined 28-6-15, KIA 26-09-1917. Perhaps an understandable mix-up by the eyewitness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 27 February Share Posted 27 February His RAN service record has him aboard HMAS Encounter, rated as an Able Seaman from 28 July 1914 to 28 June 1915, when he deserted. This would validate him being a participant in the Rabaul campaign. Given that he had left without permission, it makes sense he would not wish to bring this to anybodys attention upon enlisting in the AIF. https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Gallery151/dist/JGalleryViewer.aspx?B=4512914&S=2&N=4&R=0#/SearchNRetrieve/NAAMedia/ShowImage.aspx?B=4512914&T=P&S=4 SYER FREDERICK JOHN MARVEN : Official Number - 2957 : Date of birth - 23 Oct 1894 : Place of birth - GEELONG VIC : Place of enlistment - MELBOURNE : Had enlisted on 8 May 1913, to serve 7 years Next of Kin - SYER SARAH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteStarLine Posted 27 February Share Posted 27 February Bingo Keith! Navy records show Encounter playing a prominent part in the operation, so all good. Interesting personal touch for me was that the Encounter liaised with Kanowna, my grandfather's troopship, at Port Moresby. The men on the Kanowna had few uniforms, no mosquito nets, little water and the ship itself had effectively being seized in Townsville harbour. Working in tropical heat in Port Moresby shovelling coal into open furnaces with little water, no wonder the stokers mutinied. Then to be driven up on deck by angry soldiers with fixed bayonets just outside Port Moresby must have been an interesting sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 27 February Share Posted 27 February He arrived at Mudros on 28 Sep 1915, arrived Gallipoli 3 Oct 1915, where he then appears to have served with 1st Battalion, then transferred to 53rd Battalion on 13 Feb 1916. I am surprised that he arrived so soon after enlisting, and having declared no prior experience in HM Forces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 27 February Share Posted 27 February Information courtesy the AIF Project 1st Battalion, 8th Reinforcement AWM Roll number: 23/18/2 Embarkation: From Sydney, New South Wales on board HMAT A54 Runic on 9 August 1915 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 27 February Share Posted 27 February On 20 June 1917, it comes to light in Geelong that he has enlisted under a false name. On 6 August, it is decided to act upon this, and on 19 October 1917 there is 'regret delay of this file. This man has been Officially reported as Killed in Action, so under circumstances it is considered no further action necessary.' Whilst it seems peculiar that the onus is on his cousin (?) Robert John Loney to complete a statutory declaration, rather than Syer himself, I guess the practicality of him being at Geelong makes this the easiest solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TullochArd Posted 27 February Share Posted 27 February (edited) Although he didn't mention any Naval service on the 2610 LONEY Attestation docs this Naval service (presumably as SYER) is mentioned in the attached document submitted by his brother in 1920 which curiously refers to a "Clean and Free Pardon from His Majesty's Australian Navy". Would he have to have been a Navy deserter to receive such a pardon? If so it seems possible that any 1914 Rabaul service may have been with HMAN? Service as identified earlier by khb Either way, 1914 Australasian theatre Naval service or 1915 Gallipoli campaign Army service would have well justified his 14/15 Star although I'm no nearer with a specific "Rabaul" ribbon ....... other than it's certainly not the 1915 Naval GSM. In the link provided by Zidane another witness to the Red Cross inquiry, Pte Virgoe stated Loney was "was at Rabaul and on the Peninsular" ....... whatever that may mean. Edited 27 February by TullochArd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 27 February Share Posted 27 February As I understand it, deserters would be returned to the Navy, to face a court martial, then to continue their service. Where it comes to light that a man is a former deserter who has reenlisted in the army, the Navy would typically waive their right to claim that man. (As the Senior Service, the Navy has first refusal.) The army policy seems to have been a preference to get the soldier returned to duty, rather than a preoccupation of trials. Deserting one's post in a theatre of war is of course seen in a different light to that of deserting from a barracks or similar location in the British Isles. This was the Army Council's change to the regulations of the British Army in 1921. I'm uncertain as to the status regarding medals and the Royal Australian Navy. Given that he latterly served in the AIF, and was killed in action with the AIF, even if he had survived the war, it would make sense that only one set of medals would be forthcoming. It does appear as though the WW1 medal roll for the Royal Australian Navy is with the Defence Honours & Awards section of the Australian Defence Force. (The 60 or so ratings from New Zealand are online via Ancestry. They remained separate when the RAN came into being.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 27 February Share Posted 27 February There is a comment on his R.A.N. card that I have attempted to transcribe: Not to be claimed for further service in R.A.N. (having joined A.I.F.) S/C so endorsed forwarded to his brother for safe keeping There is no reference to his death in the service of the AIF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteStarLine Posted 27 February Share Posted 27 February 8 hours ago, TullochArd said: on the Peninsular" ....... whatever that may mean. Gallipoli. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chasemuseum Posted 2 March Share Posted 2 March Regards Rabaul ribbon, I would have thought that this was the 14-15 star. I used to have a 14-15 start to "Pte Charles Stuart Taylor AN&MEF" This was impressed on the medal. He later joined the AIF, #1882 went to Gallipoli where he was wounded, subsequently transferred to 54Bn AIF, promoted Sgt and went to France where he was killed by shell fire in October 1916. The 14-15 star was the only medal I had, although his BWM and VM were also sent to his family. Most unfortunately I lost the medal in a burglary in 1987. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteStarLine Posted 2 March Share Posted 2 March 30 minutes ago, Chasemuseum said: Regards Rabaul ribbon, I would have thought that this was the 14-15 star Everyone accepts he was eligible for this and was posthumously awarded it and it was despatched to NOK in July 1920.. The issue we're all having is that the Army Order for the grant of the star was promulgated in December 1918. Including the riband to be worn. However, he died in September 1917, so where did this mysterious 'Rabaul ribbon' really come from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 2 March Share Posted 2 March Yes, that is the challenge, in a nutshell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 19 March Share Posted 19 March On 02/03/2024 at 12:58, WhiteStarLine said: However, he died in September 1917, so where did this mysterious 'Rabaul ribbon' really come from? I still don't have an answer to that question. It does look as though an unofficial Rabaul ribbon could have come about as a result of the first ANZAC Day 'When Monash led his brigade in commemorating the first Anzac Day [in 1916], men who had served at Gallipoli wore a blue ribbon on their right breast and those who had gone ashore as part of the first landing wore a red ribbon as well.' In due course, this unofficial arrangement was replaced by a more formal insignia The ANZAC "A" badge is a brass insignia authorised in November 1917 for members of the First Australian Imperial Force who had served during the Gallipoli campaign in 1915. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANZAC_A_badge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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