30166 - Pte. Isaac Hatten - East Surrey Regiment & Northumberland Fusiliers

[TomP]

Hi All

I was hoping people would be able to help me find out a little more about this chap. I have his Victory Medal (unfortunately somebody separated it from his BWM at some point) and through this with his service number 30166 and regiment on the medal (E. Surr. R.) I have located his full name and MIC from the National Archives. It looks like at some point he transferred to the Northumberland Fusiliers and was given a new service number: 25385.

I note that his MIC doesn't specify a first date of entry into or mention a Theatre of war. Is it likely he didn't deploy abroad then, or can this possibly be found on medal index rolls? (I do not currently have access to these). Also can we find any confirmation of whether he survived the war?

Also would anybody have any idea when/why Isaac transferred into the Northumberland Fusiliers from the East Surrey Regt? I would be fascinated to find anything out about his wartime service.

Thanks in advance for any assistance
Tom

 

Source: The National Archives

[Michelle Young]

He would have deployed after 31/12/15 as he is only entitled to the War and Victory Medals. A lot of the War medals were sold in hard times as they were silver. Class Z shows he survived 

Class Z Reserve

This was authorised by an Army Order of 3 December 1918. There were fears that Germany would not accept the terms of any peace treaty, and therefore the British Government decided it would be wise to be able to quickly recall trained men in the eventuality of the resumption of hostilities. Soldiers who were being demobilised, particularly those who had agreed to serve “for the duration”, were at first posted to Class Z. They returned to civilian life but with an obligation to return if called upon. The Z Reserve was abolished on 31 March 1920.

[kenf48]

Isaac Hatten 1st East Surrey Regiment and 1st Garrison Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers

Indexed as I Hatton in the East Surrey Daily Orders on FMP  posted from the 4th Battalion to the 1st 14th January 1917

and again as J Hatton Departures to England 2nd February 1917

30167 Salt was a Derby or Group Scheme attestation December 1915 and mobilised to 4th East Surrey 20th October 1916.(transferred to 10th SWB at the IBD renumbered 40263)

It would appear Pte Hatton was repatriated from the IBD and did not reach the 1st Battalion in the field though without a service record we can't be certain.

The 1st Garrison Battalion NF was according to the LLT stationed in Malta.

As Michelle has pointed out as far as other ranks are concerned Date of Entry on the cards was not recorded unless the soldier was entitled to to the 14/or 14 -15 Star. It was not relevant for the 'war medals'. It was often noted on officer cards because they had to apply for the medals. 

[TomP]

4 hours ago, Michelle Young said:

Class Z shows he survived 

Thanks @Michelle Young Good to know that he survived the war. I wasn't aware of the Class Z reserve. I wonder if this is when he was placed into the Northumberland Fusiliers as one of their reservists?

3 hours ago, kenf48 said:

Isaac Hatten 1st East Surrey Regiment and 1st Garrison Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers

Indexed as I Hatton in the East Surrey Daily Orders on FMP  posted from the 4th Battalion to the 1st 14th January 1917

and again as J Hatton Departures to England 2nd February 1917

It would appear Pte Hatton was repatriated from the IBD and did not reach the 1st Battalion in the field though without a service record we can't be certain.

Thanks @kenf48 Very interesting. So sounds like he was sent over to 1st Btn in France (from the 4th which I understand to be a reserve Btn of the Regt) but never actually made it out of the infantry base depot (which I understand IBD to mean?) before then being sent back to the UK.

3 hours ago, kenf48 said:

Date of Entry on the cards was not recorded unless the soldier was entitled to to the 14/or 14 -15 Star. It was not relevant for the 'war medals'. It was often noted on officer cards because they had to apply for the medals. 

I also wasn't aware of this, makes sense if no star eligibility. Are the medal rolls for his VM and BWM available online, do they allude to an attestation date/deployment date? I see the note about 30167 Salt so I would assume at the same time?

It sounds like he potentially missed some of the worst aspects of the war based on some of what can be inferred?

Cheers
Tom

[kenf48]

27 minutes ago, TomP said:

I wonder if this is when he was placed into the Northumberland Fusiliers as one of their reservists?

Men were effectively demobilised to the Class Z Reserve as explained above.  He was posted to the 1st Garrison Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers and as he is on their Medal Roll that was his last unit.  I 've not searched for a potential date of transfer.

32 minutes ago, TomP said:

So sounds like he was sent over to 1st Btn in France (from the 4th which I understand to be a reserve Btn of the Regt) but never actually made it out of the infantry base depot (which I understand IBD to mean?) before then being sent back to the UK.

So it appears from the fragments on Find My Past which are transcribed from the database of the East Surrey Regiment 1st Battalion Part II Orders 1915-1918, Surrey History Centre. The original document is not available online so we cannot completely rule out transcription errors. The IBD was meant to prepare men for trench warfare and as a consequence it was a tough regime. Unfortunately without a service record we cannot know why he was sent home.  What we can say with a high degree of certainty when he went to France he was in medical category A and when posted to the Garrison Battalion had been downgraded to 'Category B i.e. Free from serious organic diseases, able to stand service on Lines of Communication in France, or in garrisons in the tropics.'

It may therefore have been an underlying condition that was exposed at the Base Depot.

42 minutes ago, TomP said:

Are the medal rolls for his VM and BWM available online, do they allude to an attestation date/deployment date? I see the note about 30167 Salt so I would assume at the same time?

There is no further information on the Rolls. which are available on Ancestry, than that which has been posted above. The rolls do not show any dates other than as noted regarding the Star Rolls, actually not quite true as there was no consistency as to the completion of the Rolls.  The Royal Fusiliers Roll for example do contain this detail, whilst the various 'Corps' e.g. MGC, Labour etc are very brief, the majority follow the practice as completed by the Northumberland Fusiliers.  The rule is named to first unit - issued by the last sometimes intermediate postings are shown, sometimes not.

I believe Pte. Salt was in a different draft to Pte. Hatten as he seemed destined for a different active service battalion of the East Surrey Regt, and as noted was reposted again in France.  

The only conclusion to be drawn from near number sampling is the date of mobilisation and/or entry into a particular regiment.  I noted Salt was a Derby Scheme attestation and had clearly obtained exemption from military service prior to mobilisation. Without knowing any biographical or occupational details for Hatten I can't draw any likely conclusions as to whether or not Pte Hatten was a Group Scheme attestation or conscript.  I should also add the caution of relying on just one surviving record to draw firm conclusions but as they were probably standing next to each other when the number was allocated it seems a fair bet. You may like to try to find other relationships. 

The Daily Part II Orders on the the other hand are a valuable resource not available for more than a handful of units and record Pte Hatten's movements with the East Surrey Regiment (save for any transcription errors).

 

[TomP]

@kenf48 Thank you for your reply and further clarity. 

18 hours ago, kenf48 said:

He was posted to the 1st Garrison Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers and as he is on their Medal Roll that was his last unit.  I 've not searched for a potential date of transfer

Noted thank you, so this was still during the war.

18 hours ago, kenf48 said:

It may therefore have been an underlying condition that was exposed at the Base Depot.

Very interesting.

18 hours ago, kenf48 said:

The Daily Part II Orders on the the other hand are a valuable resource not available for more than a handful of units and record Pte Hatten's movements with the East Surrey Regiment (save for any transcription errors).

Thank you for directing me to this, I found the appropriate alphabetised list  and have saved a copy of the brief section mentioning Pte Hatten.