Arthur John Allen, 8 Lincolns. KIA 31/07/1917

[Laurence Allen]

Hi, new to forum. Been following threads as best I can with reference to Rifle and May farm engagements. How do I find out about my relative in more detail as guessing a lot currently. Obtaining military records takes so long these days. Arthur John Allen. Died 31/7/1917. Memorial at Ypres Menin Gate. Lincolnshire Regiment, 8th Battalion. Reg number - 41692. Formerly RASC (S/4/109813). Did he die in battle and if so which engagement? Did he die of his wounds and if so from which engagement. Without military records so much guessing. Would love to build a proper picture of him and service. Any advice or information gratefully received. Thanks

[Michelle Young]

Welcome to the forum. 31st July 1917 was the opening day of the 3rd Battle of Ypres. 
The relevant war diaries for the 8 Lincolns is in the link. Currently free to download after free registration. 
You say obtaining records takes so long, have you looked to see if his record survived? If so it will be on Ancestry or Find my Past. I don’t subscribe so can’t look. You may be able to get access via your local library. The vast majority of service records were destroyed during a bombing raid in WW2. 
As he is remembered on the Menin Gate, I would say killed in action. 
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354087

[Michelle Young]

CWGC give his number as 41392. As he’s on the Menin Gate with no known grave I would say killed in action. 

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/925159/arthur-john-allen/

[PRC]

Hi @Laurence Allen and welcome to the forum

Medal Index Card and Soldiers Died in the Great War have the 41692 service number, as does the Memorial Register on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website. 41392 is potentially another one of those little errors that crept in when they were creating the website. If you contact them it should be fairly easy to get it corrected - probably a copy of the memorial register is all that will be needed to make them see the error of their ways! The memorial itself doesn't show service numbers so nothing to actually do at that end, which in turn makes it easier to get the CWGC to budge.

Nothing obvious in the way of service records under either Lincolnshire Regiment service number, so most likely they are amongst the many that went up in flames in WW2.

His Medal Index Card shows him as Norfolk Regiment, service number 30866, so his original service with the Army Service Corps, (Royal didn't come until late 1918), was probably home service only. It shows him only qualifying for the British War Medal and the Victory Medal so the very, very earliest he could have served in a Theatre of War was from the 1st January 1916 onwards. As far as the Norfolk Regiment number is concerned, for nearby numbers I have a mix of Derby Scheme men who registered for service at the end of 1915 but were then not called till the end of 1916 \ very start of 1917, and men reaching 18.  They were initially posted to a Training Reserve Battalion before moving on to the Norfolk Regiment February \ March 1917. Quite a few went out as drafts to France, so technically were serving with the Norfolk Regiment when they landed overseas, but were then reposted elsewhere while they were still in a holding camp, an Infantry Base Depot, on the coast.  I'm not aware of a draft ending up with the Lincolnshire, but because so many records were destroyed and service with the Norfolks was only a brief period in the UK, there are big gaps in what I know about that particular part of the service number range used by the Norfolk Regiment - and my database is still in its fairly early days. A near number search from the Lincolnshire Regiment end may tell you more if you can find any men with surviving records.

The Regimental History can be viewed online at Archive Org and may help flesh out the war diary entries. https://archive.org/details/TheHistoryOfTheLincolnshireRegiment1914-1918

Soldiers Died in the Great War classifies him as "Died" rather than Killed in Action or Died of Wounds so seems there is uncertainty about the circumstances of his death. Doesn't look like the International Committee of the Red Cross have anything recorded for him.

Going back to the Regimental History by C.R. Simpson the description of the events of the 31st July 1917 highlight a number of circumstances in which he might be unaccounted for.

Image courtesy https://archive.org/details/TheHistoryOfTheLincolnshireRegiment1914-1918/page/n273/mode/2up

May be worthwhile checking out his entry in the Army Register of Soldiers Effects, (available on either Ancestry or Fold 3) to see how they classified his death. The register is a financial inventory rather than a list of belongings. It will show things like who and when the balance of his pay was sent to his family, and later who his war gratuity went to. If he was originally classified as missing in action his pay won't have been sent out until the army was satisfied he was dead, so worth a look at the date that happened. It could be 12 months after he was reported missing.

Hope that gets you started.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 26 February by PRC
Typos

[Laurence Allen]

Thank you everyone, so grateful for this help.

[Matlock1418]

3 hours ago, PRC said:

If he was originally classified as missing in action his pay won't have been sent out until the army was satisfied he was dead, so worth a look at the date that happened. It could be 12 months after he was reported missing.

It could take a while whilst checks were made - Though it was possibly more usual for 6+ months to pass before a man was presumed dead and a pension paid,

In fact his MoP standard dependant's/ widow's pension index card at WFA/Fold3 is headed Presumed Dead - so he must have been considered missing for some time [often the cause of ICRC enquiry as was mentioned].

• Form 104-88 = Death notification of a married man sent from the man’s Record Office to the War Office 8.6.18
• Notification of death 6.12.17 [by whom to whom??]
• Form 104-76 = Declaration made by the Widow of a Soldier in support of claim to pension for herself and child(ren) 20.6.18

And in fact, b. 11.1.74, Jessie Emma's payment [under Arts 11 & 12] of 20/5 pw from 8.7.18 was paid for her pension and daughter, b.20.4.07, Phyllis Jesse's allowance [Under the 1918 Royal Warrant 13/9 + 6/8 = 20/5pw]

She later claimed for an Alternative Pension Widow's [under Art 13] based on his necessarily provable pre-war/service income - we can't see any such quantum [I can't tell if she had any success as from 26/5/23 a standard PW under Art/Reg 11 of the 1919 RW alone seems to have applied - after her daughter reached 16]. However we can also see her APW pension award file was deliberately destroyed 11/3/65 - presumably she had likely died

M

[Laurence Allen]

This is absolutely amazing information. I had no idea it was possible to obtain such detailed information. I have previously subscribed to Ancestry and Find My Past but obviously had no idea how to find such detail. Thank you for this. It is therefore impossible to tell when and where he died which must have been so sad for his family.

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, Laurence Allen said:

This is absolutely amazing information. I had no idea it was possible to obtain such detailed information. I have previously subscribed to Ancestry and Find My Past but obviously had no idea how to find such detail.

Please be aware above there are quotes from the record [in italics] and also my interpretative commentary based on my knowledge and documents - it is amazing that such informative pension details can have surfaced so much later [thanks to WFA rescuing the records]  I find the human detail so interesting, yet so very tragic.

1 hour ago, Laurence Allen said:

It is therefore impossible to tell when and where he died which must have been so sad for his family.

CWGC and the MoP have quoted 31.7.17 so that seems most likely - They seem to have been pretty sure of the date [typically the last time he was seen by someone or at the latest by the time of the last roll call/before his name was not accounted for [I have a GGU whose death was/is actually a double dated entry, 18/19 - it seems he went missing between attacking one afternoon and the next morning when his regiment had retired and he is not known recovered] and others can be commemorated under a wider date span or even under 'on or since' etc.  When there is a date range the CWGC commonly seem to make a single punt [on exactly what grounds I cannot exactly fathom nor exactly why in my GGU's case they settled on a double date, which is pretty realistic, rather than a single one]

Where his battalion was, see the War Diary, would likely give you the approximate location.

Of course his body might not have survived [e.g. killed/destroyed by a shell] or his body may have been later recovered without identification - so he might perhaps be under an 'Unknown' CWGC headstone in a cemetery somewhere in F&F.  Late recovery/exhumations may have been subsequently reburied some distance from the original place of unintentional/intentional battlefield interment [the latter might have been recorded but details now lost - less likely since he was considered 'Missing', then again those who perhaps buried him might have also been killed and the details thus lost] = challenging! .. so he's now commemorated on the Menin Gate like so many others.

Yes, I'm pretty sure it was very anxious and sad time for the family [50 years after his death my GGU's family were still concious of his loss and the uncertainty of the actual circumstances his death and where his body might be - another 50+ years on and I still wonder about it].

M

Edited 27 February by Matlock1418

[PRC]

I’ve been struggling to find Arthur in the Official Casualty Lists but that’s not uncommon. The lists themselves are full of errors, plus the sources that are available on line are usually automated software transcriptions that leave much to be desired.

So I turned to looking for other men who died serving with the 8^th Battalion on the 31^st July 1917. The Regimental History has 85 Other Ranks recorded as missing.

The Commonwealth War Grave Commission (CWGC) website actually lists 57 fatalities on that day of which 3 were officers. I’ve not gone through them all to check if they died in the action – some may have been wounded on previous days. Either way either a significant number of men subsequently were either found to be prisoners of war or were lost somewhere in the medical evacuation chain at the time casualties were recorded.

While the information can be dug out of the CWGC database with effort, for this sort of enquiry a separate search system called “Geoff’s Search Engine” that links through to each CWGC record is a quick and simple tool to use. http://www.hut-six.co.uk/cgi-bin/searchWW1.php

Particularly interesting in this case is the first return offered, a Private 41700 E.G. Bennett. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/456270/e-g-bennett/

On his webpage there are some additional documents. These included the usual grave registration report but also a concentration report. Private Bennetts body was found in late 1919 beneath a rough cross at map reference Sheet 28 O.17.c.4.3. The surrounding battlefield turned up a number of unknown british soldiers, including a man of the Middlesex Regiment, (the Regimental History had the men of the 8^th Battalion going into action in support of the Middlesex), plus the battlefield grave of an unknown soldier of the Lincolns. Of course this area was fought over many times so the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, (or the Imperial War Graves Commission as it was at the time), could not assume that the unknown men died on the 31^st July 1917 or that the unknown Middlesex and unknown Lincolns soldiers even came from the Battalions involved on that day – and thus neither can we.

Image courtesy the Commonwealth War Graves Commission.

All the bodies found were moved to Voormezeele Enclosure No.3 Cemetery in Belgium. As far as I can tell the Unknown Lincoln and the Unknown Middlesex still remain unknown. Their graves and those of the unknown British Soldiers are listed here:-

Image courtesy the Commonwealth War Graves Commission.

His service number – just 8 on from Arthur, almost certainly means he was transferred to the Lincolnshire Regiment at the same time.

The Medal Index Card for Edgar Bennett shows he had previously been service number 30874 in the Norfolk Regiment. He too only qualified for the Victory Medal and the British War Medal.

Soldiers Died in the Great War, (SDGW) a multi-volume HMSO publication from the 1920’s, shows him as Killed in Action and that he was formerly 143858, “R.A.S.C.”. Edgar was born Geavil, Somerset, resident Aldershot, and enlisted Hartley “Witnrey”, Hampshire.

His service records don’t appear to have survived.

He appears in a list of the missing that occurs in the Weekly Casualty List that was published on Tuesday 25^th September 1917. These lists actually pulled together the previous weeks daily casualty lists and Private Bennett was on the one for September 17^th. Six to eight weeks after the event is pretty common. Although the list doesn’t include Arthur Allen it does appear to have a number of 8^th Battalion men who turn up on the CWGC database. (Right hand column just below the mid-point on this page. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/194141912

Others on that list of the missing and also on the CWGC database serving with the 8^th Battalion when they died are, (and adding additional information for those with near numbers):-

41587 Private Thomas Nathan Adcock, (Ypres Menin Gate Memorial)
41736 Private Wilfred William Bates, (Ypres Menin Gate Memorial)
41691 Private Charles Henry Berry, (Ypres Menin Gate Memorial), MiC shows previously 30865 Norfolk Regiment, SDGW shows Killed in Action, formerly 109815 R.A.S.C. No surviving service records.
41678 Private Joseph Thomas Bone, (Ypres Menin Gate Memorial), MiC shows previously 30852 Norfolk Regiment, SDGW shows Killed in Action, formerly 145290 R.A.S.C. No surviving service records.
202085 Private Cecil Borman, (Ypres Menin Gate Memorial)
41720 Private George Thomas Brendon, (Ypres Menin Gate Memorial), MiC shows Private S2/016368 Army Service Corps, first landed in Egypt 29^th June 1915, subsequently 30894 7^th Battalion, Norfolk Regiment. SDGW shows Killed in Action, formerly 016368 R.A.S.C. No surviving service records.
235120 Private Charles Thomas Brooks, (Ypres Menin Gate Memorial)
27087 Private Robert Carey, (Ypres Menin Gate Memorial)
235153 Private Reginald John Cranfield (Ypres Menin Gate Memorial)
16492 Serjeant Arthur Cusworth, (Ypres Menin Gate Memorial)
41706 Private John Henry Davey, (Ypres Menin Gate Memorial), MiC shows John Davey previously 30880 Norfolk Regiment, SDGW shows Killed in Action, no “formerly” information. No surviving service records.
235048 Private William James Earwaker, (Ypres Menin Gate Memorial)
41713 Private Robert Henry Fallick, (Ypres Menin Gate Memorial), MiC shows previously 30887 Norfolk Regiment, SDGW shows Killed in Action, formerly 144965 R.S.P.D.,R.A.S.C. No surviving service records.
12562 Corporal James Goodhand, (Ypres Menin Gate Memorial)
235246 Private Samuel Walter Gray, (Ypres Menin Gate Memorial)
41729 Private Herbert Greer, (Ypres Menin Gate Memorial)
235186 Private John Guest, (Ypres Menin Gate Memorial)
235056 Private Douglas Cyril Hannett, (Ypres Menin Gate Memorial)
41749 Private Albert Edward Heath, (Ypres Menin Gate Memorial)
11898 Private Arthur Palmer Hill, (Ypres Menin Gate Memorial)
235254 Private Janes William Ives, (Ypres Menin Gate Memorial)
235194 Private George Charles Kenny, (Ypres Menin Gate Memorial)
41751 Private Arthur George King, (Ypres Menin Gate Memorial)
235259 Private Augustus Lauterbach, (Ypres Menin Gate Memorial)
235202 Private Percy William Nodes, (Ypres Menin Gate Memorial)
41672 Private Sidney George Pippard, (Ypres Menin Gate Memorial), MiC shows previously 30846 Norfolk Regiment, SDGW shows Killed in Action, no “formerly” information. No surviving service records.
12085 Serjeant Frank Pollard, (Ypres Menin Gate Memorial)
23643 Private Henry George Proctor, (Ypres Menin Gate Memorial)
12144 Private Arthur Percy Rampton, (Ypres Menin Gate Memorial)
235074 Private Joseph Ratcliffe, (Ypres Menin Gate Memorial)
202950 Private John William Robins, (Ypres Menin Gate Memorial)
235078 Private Joseph Ernest Rogers, (Ypres Menin Gate Memorial)
23427 Private Frederick Sherriff, (Ypres Menin Gate Memorial)
27360 Private Charles Sims, (Ypres Menin Gate Memorial)
41589 Private Walter Speed, (Ypres Menin Gate Memorial)
12395 Private Harry Spencer, (Ypres Menin Gate Memorial)
203160 Private Edward Stubley, (Ypres Menin Gate Memorial)
235095 Private William Edward Sullivan, (Ypres Menin Gate Memorial)
10463 Private Harry Swinn, (Ypres Menin Gate Memorial)
 

So starting to look potentially like Allen, Bennett and some of the others were part of a group weeded out of the Army Service Corps and sent for Infantry Training with a home service battalion , possibly of the Norfolk Regiment. Subsequently sent out as part of a draft to the 7^th Battalion, they were re-directed to the Lincolns while still at the Infantry Base Depot.

More work however would be needed to firm that up.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 27 February by PRC
Formatting and add Grave Registration Report

[George Rayner]

Sorry may have missed this in above details but the medal roll says 2nd Lincolns. In Ancestry.

George

[Laurence Allen]

Again I am amazed at the knowledge to be found if you know where and how to look. I will read this in depth and try to paint some sort of a picture of this man for my family tree. Thanks for your support.