John William Astle - d Coy 10th (service) Bn. Gloucestershire Regiment

[GARY BROAD]

Hi all,

I'm researching local men who fell in the two world wars and to be honest, I'm learning on the hoof (being new to research) and could do with a steer.

Apologies if the question is a bit 'basic' (me to a tee) but I've visited 'Soldiers that died in the Great War' and on there it confirms that the lad I'm researching had two service numbers with two separate regiments  Whilst he served and died with the Gloucesters, it says he was previously with the Worcestershire Regiment under the service number 17439. 

Thing is, I can't find any other details about his (what must have been short) time with the Worcesters anywhere else.

I understand that young men were often moved from regiment to regiment as required, but I simply can't find anything about his time with the Worcesters. Could he have joined the Worcs. territorials as a very young man and then been transferred ? (he was only 19 when he fell). 

Any guidance would be very greatly appreciated!

PS I have a newspaper clipping confirming his death, within which it's also confirmed that he was 'company barber' - how wonderful to find such detail and give life to the mans name!

Thanks so much !!!

Gary B

[Allan1892]

His entry in the Medal Rolls (compiled by the Army) shows that he only served with the 10th Battalion, Gloucestershire Regiment.

His Medal Index Card only shows service with the Gloucestershire Regiment, he entered a Theatre of War (France) on the 9th August 1915

I understand believe that the details shown in the Soldiers Died in the Great War were actually provided by the soldier's family leading to inaccurate information.

(images courtesy of Ancestry)

Edited 26 February by Allan1892

[Allan1892]

The Dependant Pension cards only show service with the Gloucestershire Regiment

[RussT]

2 hours ago, GARY BROAD said:

Whilst he served and died with the Gloucesters, it says he was previously with the Worcestershire Regiment under the service number 17439. 

Thing is, I can't find any other details about his (what must have been short) time with the Worcesters anywhere else.

I understand that young men were often moved from regiment to regiment as required, but I simply can't find anything about his time with the Worcesters. Could he have joined the Worcs. territorials as a very young man and then been transferred ? (he was only 19 when he fell). 

Any guidance would be very greatly appreciated!

You will find that he was one of a large group of men (mainly from the Midlands/Birmingham) who originally enlisted into the Worcestershire Regiment but were shortly thereafter transferred to the Gloucestershire Regiment. These movements of men from where there was an evident surplus of men to where there was a deficiency, particularly during the raising of new army Service Battalions, was very common.

If you look through other men in SDGW with similar Gloucestershire Regiment numbers you will find they were all ex Worcestershire Regiment men (although not all are recorded as such).

The image below typifies this transfer - 17988 Hughes Worcestershire Regiment transferred to the Gloucestershire Regiment a few weeks later on 12/10/1914 and was allotted the new number 15806 (note similarity to Astle's numbers).

Given that this transfer occurred in the UK and well before his deployment overseas, then his Worcestershire Regimental details do not appear on his MIC/Medal Roll.

Regards

Russ

 

 

[Matlock1418]

14 minutes ago, Allan1892 said:

I understand believe that the details shown in the Soldiers Died in the Great War were actually provided by the soldier's family leading to inaccurate information.

Whilst this might be true ...

My thought is that the MR & MIC only definitively reflect O/S in a ToW and the pension record only necessarily uses the last regimental no. = Gloucestershire Regt

Thus it would seem possible that he perhaps had earlier H/S with the Worcestershire Regt and that this is what is being also quoted by SDGW = ???

... And this is what Russ seems to have just mentioned.

M

[RussT]

The details in SDGW were taken from a man's Service Record, not his family.

Rather than jump straightaway into a conclusion that there must be an error, it's worth examining the bigger picture to explore if any patterns can be found - which is clearly evident in this case as I have described.

Each Regiment/Corps compiled their own SDWG Records so there is some variety of what's recorded e.g. not all Regiments/Corps recorded a man's former Regimental details and even when they did, it can be a bit hit & miss with some Regiments/Corps.

When a former Regiment/Corps is recorded in SDGW, it is invariably the number/unit he first joined and so it would not record any intermediate unit/numbers regardless as to how many intermediate units a man served with and irrespective as to whether a man served with any such units overseas or not.

One often commented upon aspect in SDGW is that when a man's Residence is given, this appears to be often the residence of his NoK as per what is given in his Records. This can lead sometimes to some confusion if not appreciated.

Given that any Pension Claim needs only to record a man's last unit/number, there is no need whatsoever to record any former units/numbers on those records. A lack of the latter on his Pension Records does not mean he didn't serve in any former units.

Regards

Russ

[GARY BROAD]

Guys, I can't thank you enough - I'm really, really appreciative of your guidance.

I also have to say that the levels of knowledge I come across on this forum are exceptional - RussT, Matlock1418 and Allan1892, thank you all so very much. I now have a far better grasp of things!

All the very best guys - and thanks again!

Gary B

[Michelle Young]

Given the date of entry to theatre same as Ernest Young in my signature , I assume he was one of the survivors of the battle of Loos. 

[GARY BROAD]

Michelle, hi again - I hope you're well - yes, you're spot-on!!

In a newspaper-clipping that I found, it's reported that:  

“Pt. W. Astle, son of Mrs. Astle, 43 Churchfields, was killed in action by the bursting of a shell on August 19^th.  Private Astle joined the Gloucester’s, went to France in August 1915, was in the first line of the Battle of Loos and had taken part in all of the sanguinary engagements since then."

(I have to confess, I had to Google the word "sanguinary" - but now having found out what it means, I'm using it far too often!)

All the best, Gary B

[Allan1892]

2 hours ago, RussT said:

The details in SDGW were taken from a man's Service Record, not his family

Apologies Russ, you are correct -- I got mixed up with the information on De Ruvigny's Roll Of Honour 1914-1918 

[Matlock1418]

3 hours ago, RussT said:

The details in SDGW were taken from a man's Service Record, not his family.

3 hours ago, RussT said:

Given that any Pension Claim needs only to record a man's last unit/number, there is no need whatsoever to record any former units/numbers on those records. A lack of the latter on his Pension Records does not mean he didn't serve in any former units.

Agreed on both points - the only essential number for the MoP was a man's last - however there can be varying other and earlier extra details added on some pension index cards [especially for disability claims], but you cannot depend on it. None extra offered for this JWA, as has been noted above.

1 hour ago, Allan1892 said:

I got mixed up with the information on De Ruvigny's Roll Of Honour 1914-1918 

These things can happen!

Generally - Another source to be aware of / be beware of for 'irregularities' is the National Roll of the Great War, 1914-18 [published according to subscription, rather than officially] - quite a few 'facts' in there are not quite what they ought to be [some having been of some discussion here on GWF!].

M