Uniform Identification help

[GJW]

Hello everybody,

Am looking for help to identify the regiment this soldier was from if possible. Hopefully, the Royal Welch Fusiliers or Royal Dublin Fusiliers for it to make sense of my research.

Many thanks,

Gerard

[GWF1967]

Perhaps one of the resident uniform experts,  @FROGSMILE might be able to identify. 

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, GJW said:

Hello everybody,

Am looking for help to identify the regiment this soldier was from if possible. Hopefully, the Royal Welch Fusiliers or Royal Dublin Fusiliers for it to make sense of my research.

Many thanks,

Gerard

Unfortunately the key aspects that would reveal his regiment are both missing.  These would ordinarily be collar badges and shoulder titles, or at least the latter are indiscernible, if there, and in any case for fusiliers they were in two tiers (more if TF).

However, it does seem to be a Royal regiment given what appear to be dark blue facings.  He has general service buttons as would be expected and also the standard for other ranks, general service ‘Union clasp’ on his Slade-Wallace equipment waistbelt.

He wears a full dress tunic of the pattern adopted between 1902 and 1912, when the white piping around the top edge of the collar was moved to its base only (see colour image below).  Do you know anything about him at all?

Only officers wore regimental buttons and waist belt clasps as both, regimental buttons, and waist belt clasps, had been given up for other ranks around 1874, as compensatory reductions (in cost) in order to fund the new collar badges adopted at that time.

The collar badge of all Fusilier regiments was based on the grenade symbol and it was also worn on shoulder straps along with the title.  Neither are visible here, so there’s absolutely no evidence that he’s a fusilier.

Edited 26 February by FROGSMILE

[GJW]

The buttons do appear something like the RDF but cant make it out clearly though

3 minutes ago, GWF1967 said:

Perhaps one of the resident uniform experts,  @FROGSMILE might be able to identify. 

Cheers, hopefully somebody skilled in this might be able to throw some light

[mancpal]

I’m no expert on uniforms but his belt buckle doesn’t look like the Prince of Wales feathers to me. 
That would leave you with the RDF grenade buckle though possibly other fusilier units also employed a grenade motif.

Simon

 

 

[GJW]

1 minute ago, mancpal said:

I’m no expert on uniforms but his belt buckle doesn’t look like the Prince of Wales feathers to me. 
That would leave you with the RDF grenade buckle though possibly other fusilier units also employed a grenade motif.

Simon

 

 

Thanks Simon I would have to agree. RDF would make a little more sense in my research of this soldier

[GJW]

17 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Unfortunately the key aspects that would reveal his regiment are both missing.  These would ordinarily be collar badges and shoulder titles, or at least the latter are indiscernible.  However, it does seem to be a Royal regiment given what appear to be dark blue facings.  He has general service buttons as would be expected and also the standard, general service’Union clasp’ on his Slade-Wallace equipment waistbelt.  He wears a full dress tunic of the pattern adopted between 1902 and 1912, when the white piping around the top edge of the collar was moved to its base only.  Do you know anything about him at all?

Only officers wore regimental buttons as both, regimental buttons and waist belt clasps had been given up around 1874 as compensatory reductions (in cost) in order to fund the new collar badges adopted at that time.

 

I am hoping it is this man. He also had a brother KIA with the Welch Fusiliers. A family member sent me the picture that she had in the house from way back.

English, Joseph. 2nd Battalion, Royal Dublin Fusiliers. Rank: Private. 
Service Number: 20335.  
Death Date: Thursday, March 21st, 1918. 
Born 11th April 1887. Twin brother of Michael and son of Abraham and Mary 
(nee Rourke) of Moone. In 1911, Joseph was living at home in Moone where 
he was engaged locally as a labourer. He joined the Royal Dublin Fusiliers 
in Grangecon and by early 1916 he had been posted to France. In September 
1916, he was admitted to the 4th Stationary Hospital, based in St. Omer, 
having contracted influenza and on October 6th he was released as fit for duty. 
On 21st March 1918, Joseph was serving in a section of the frontline 
known as Sandbag Alley near the small village of Lempire in France. That 
day, at 4.45am, saw the launch of ‘Kaiserschlacht’, the massive German 
1918 spring offensive. His section of the line was heavily hit by enemy 
artillery, including poisonous gas, and the shelling lasted for about six hours. 
At 11.15 am, the German army attacked in force, eventually taking Sandbag 
Alley after fierce fighting. It was during this action that Joseph was killed. 
He was initially reported as missing (presumed dead), and he was later 
confirmed as killed in action. 

[FROGSMILE]

18 minutes ago, GJW said:

 

I am hoping it is this man. He also had a brother KIA with the Welch Fusiliers. A family member sent me the picture that she had in the house from way back.

English, Joseph. 2nd Battalion, Royal Dublin Fusiliers. Rank: Private. 
Service Number: 20335.  
Death Date: Thursday, March 21st, 1918. 
Born 11th April 1887. Twin brother of Michael and son of Abraham and Mary 
(nee Rourke) of Moone. In 1911, Joseph was living at home in Moone where 
he was engaged locally as a labourer. He joined the Royal Dublin Fusiliers 
in Grangecon and by early 1916 he had been posted to France. In September 
1916, he was admitted to the 4th Stationary Hospital, based in St. Omer, 
having contracted influenza and on October 6th he was released as fit for duty. 
On 21st March 1918, Joseph was serving in a section of the frontline 
known as Sandbag Alley near the small village of Lempire in France. That 
day, at 4.45am, saw the launch of ‘Kaiserschlacht’, the massive German 
1918 spring offensive. His section of the line was heavily hit by enemy 
artillery, including poisonous gas, and the shelling lasted for about six hours. 
At 11.15 am, the German army attacked in force, eventually taking Sandbag 
Alley after fierce fighting. It was during this action that Joseph was killed. 
He was initially reported as missing (presumed dead), and he was later 
confirmed as killed in action. 

As a long shot it’s possible that he’s a fusilier who has not yet been issued with any of his tunic insignia, but that would be very odd and suggest a new enlistment or someone just returned to service who’s not yet received his full kit.  Each soldier was issued with two badges and two pairs of collar badges and shoulder titles that once received he was to maintain himself (i.e. pay to replace if lost). 

Edited 25 February by FROGSMILE

[GWF1967]

3 minutes ago, GJW said:

 

I am hoping it is this man. He also had a brother KIA with the Welch Fusiliers. A family member sent me the picture that she had in the house from way back.

English, Joseph. 2nd Battalion, Royal Dublin Fusiliers. Rank: Private. 
Service Number: 20335.  
Death Date: Thursday, March 21st, 1918. 
Born 11th April 1887. Twin brother of Michael and son of Abraham and Mary 
(nee Rourke) of Moone. In 1911, Joseph was living at home in Moone where 
he was engaged locally as a labourer. He joined the Royal Dublin Fusiliers 
in Grangecon and by early 1916 he had been posted to France. In September 
1916, he was admitted to the 4th Stationary Hospital, based in St. Omer, 
having contracted influenza and on October 6th he was released as fit for duty. 
On 21st March 1918, Joseph was serving in a section of the frontline 
known as Sandbag Alley near the small village of Lempire in France. That 
day, at 4.45am, saw the launch of ‘Kaiserschlacht’, the massive German 
1918 spring offensive. His section of the line was heavily hit by enemy 
artillery, including poisonous gas, and the shelling lasted for about six hours. 
At 11.15 am, the German army attacked in force, eventually taking Sandbag 
Alley after fierce fighting. It was during this action that Joseph was killed. 
He was initially reported as missing (presumed dead), and he was later 
confirmed as killed in action. 

The local newspaper from the area he was living may have a photograph for comparison.  

[GJW]

Just now, GWF1967 said:

The local newspaper from the area he was living may have a photograph for comparison.  

I have scanned each weekly edition from the local newspaper for the duration of the war. Not one picture was ever printed of any soldier. Ireland was not kind to its British soldiers especially post April 1916. 

[FROGSMILE]

This soldier is also purported to be from the RDF, and again is missing the usual insignia.  Assuming the regiment is correct then at least it does go to show that these things sometimes occurred.  However, it is only circumstantial evidence at best and you will need some other image of him to be positive of his ID.

Edited 25 February by FROGSMILE

[mancpal]

Frogsmile,

If the belt clasp is neither the PoW feathers and not a grenade motif then what do you think it is? 
I can’t make it out to be the clasp you added to your initial reply, it still looks like a grenade to me though as stated I’m not a uniform aficionado.

Simon

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, mancpal said:

Frogsmile,

If the belt clasp is neither the PoW feathers and not a grenade motif then what do you think it is? 
I can’t make it out to be the clasp you added to your initial reply, it still looks like a grenade to me though as stated I’m not a uniform aficionado.

Simon

It’s definitely the ‘Union Clasp’ (DIEU ET MON DROIT) Simon, I can see the crown and lion central motif clearly.  It was the standard general service clasp for white Slade-Wallace belts from 1874 up to the present day.  It’s also used on the brown leather warrant officers belt with sword carriage.  I’m very familiar with it, not least because I wore one too.

Interestingly only the Foot Guards and Royal Marines retained regimental clasps for other ranks, which they still wear today.  The officers were unaffected and did indeed have grenades, or other regimental devices as a central motif, but not the other ranks (see belt on scarlet tunic above plus the B&W photos).

NB.  Before 1874 other ranks did have regimental clasps of the same outline shape and functionality, but with the precedence number on the central male part, and the regimental title around the circlet, or female part. 

 

Edited 25 February by FROGSMILE

[GJW]

 

This is a slightly better shot - does it help any?

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, GJW said:

 

This is a slightly better shot - does it help any?

Yes it confirms 100% what I explained previously.  The GS buttons and Union clasp on the waistbelt are even clearer.

There is nothing to indicate regiment, but the facing colour of collar and cuffs indicate a regiment with Royal appellation.

Edited 26 February by FROGSMILE

[GJW]

16 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes it confirms 100% what I explained previously.  The GS buttons and Union clasp on the waistbelt are even clearer.

There is nothing to indicate regiment, but the facing colour of collar and cuffs indicate a regiment with Royal appellation.

Cheers F - GS Buttons = General Service Buttons I take it.

[FROGSMILE]

48 minutes ago, GJW said:

Cheers F - GS Buttons = General Service Buttons I take it.

Yes, I think I explained that in my first post above.  It will probably be useful for your future research if you note things down if you’re likely to analyse more uniform photos at a later stage. I do understand that it’s a lot of information to take in, especially if you’re unfamiliar as most new researchers are. 

Edited 26 February by FROGSMILE