Old Phil Posted 24 February Share Posted 24 February Did any battalion of the Buffs (Volunteer, Territorial, Service) wear black badges? If so, during what period? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 24 February Share Posted 24 February (edited) 4 hours ago, Old Phil said: Did any battalion of the Buffs (Volunteer, Territorial, Service) wear black badges? If so, during what period? No. The badge was produced in just four finishes: 1. Gilding metal (rank and file). 2. Gilt metal (senior NCO staff). 3. Silver (officers coloured forage cap). 4. Bronze (officers service dress). The 1st and 2nd Volunteer Battalions (and their forebear RVC) favoured rifle green uniforms with black buttons, but neither adopted a black undress cap badge. Initially collar badges were worn in field service caps, and these were the white horse of Kent on scroll INVICTA in nickel silver. However, according to Colin Churchill, sometimes the officers pattern bronze badge, which was very dark in colour, was occasionally worn as cap insignia by the VF/TF units as a nod towards their rifle volunteer origins. NB. The lower two images are officers service dress collar badges. Edited 24 February by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Phil Posted 24 February Author Share Posted 24 February Many thanks, that's extremely helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 25 February Share Posted 25 February (edited) However you may have forgotten this blackened 4th Bn one https://steadythebuffsmilitaria.co.uk/shop/4th-battalion-the-buffs-blackened-brass-cap-badge/ Very rare and believed to be pre WW1. Edited 25 February by max7474 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 25 February Share Posted 25 February (edited) 37 minutes ago, max7474 said: However you may have forgotten this blackened 4th Bn one https://steadythebuffsmilitaria.co.uk/shop/4th-battalion-the-buffs-blackened-brass-cap-badge/ Very rare and believed to be pre WW1. I don’t think it’s black Max, but OSDB as mentioned above. I spent several hours yesterday researching various books on insignia, Westlake, Kipling and King, Gaylor, Churchill and scoured through some others on the VF/TF. None of the books show, or record, any use of a black cap badge by the Buffs. Nor is there mention of black cap insignia for the 1st and 2nd VB, with photos showing the white metal horse. The only mention at all is by Churchill in his tome on collar badges, where he mentions the apparent use of OSDB badges by the TF battalions for a period. No dates are quoted and most significantly of all there’s no mention of the 4th and 5th Battalions TF wearing black buttons, which would have been usual if black badges were worn, nor is there any mention in published regimental histories. It’s all rather odd, but given the photographic evidence of other TF units that favoured black insignia I would have expected to see some of the Buffs. NB. The title scroll beneath seems significant, but I can’t find mention of it anywhere? On the face of it it seems conclusive evidence though and it would be a rather elaborate hoax if not. All very strange! The 1st VB became the 4th Battalion (TF) in 1908. It had previously been the 2nd (East Kent) Rifle Volunteer Corps. Edited 25 February by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 25 February Share Posted 25 February Definitely black and not bronzed.and yet the badge exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 25 February Share Posted 25 February K&K Vol 1 No 1699 refers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 25 February Share Posted 25 February (edited) 37 minutes ago, max7474 said: K&K Vol 1 No 1699 refers Well spotted Max, I could not find it despite my scouring of references and missed that in K&K. I concur that the most recent badge image is categorically black. It’s a pity we can’t learn a bit more about its usage. @Old Phil please note. NB. Both examples have loops and cotter pin, which fits with the period before the Brodrick cap, so probably worn on field service caps, perhaps by a particular rank grouping, or as a relatively short lived replacement for the collar badges worn as cap insignia previously. If so it would explain their scarcity. Afternote: However, there was no 4th Battalion during the period of Brodrick wear, that cap not being introduced until 1900 and replaced by 1905, so it’s puzzling as to what it might’ve been worn in after 1908 when the 4th Battalion was formed as part of the TF. It’s all rather puzzling given the preeminence of the slider badge. Edited 25 February by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 25 February Share Posted 25 February I would agree. I did wonder whether it was for the slouch hat as some were still about in 1908. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 25 February Share Posted 25 February (edited) 18 minutes ago, max7474 said: I would agree. I did wonder whether it was for the slouch hat as some were still about in 1908. Slouch hat would be likely except that I’d have thought the loops usually had to be longer to fit through the felt, so I’m not too sure. A strong consideration though I agree. I wonder if they had a cyclist section. Edited 25 February by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Phil Posted 25 February Author Share Posted 25 February Many thanks to you both again, especially for the research. This seems to be even more complicated than I thought and raises more questions than are answered! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 25 February Share Posted 25 February (edited) 2 hours ago, Old Phil said: Many thanks to you both again, especially for the research. This seems to be even more complicated than I thought and raises more questions than are answered! Yes there’s very little information to be found about it. I think the black badge existed for a very short time and certainly had gone by 1914. It’s also unclear what the situation was with black buttons that usually accompany black badges. At that time the Territorial Force County Associations organised their own insignia and the regular army played no part. Unfortunately the regimental museum (a shared endeavour with other regiments) suffered a catastrophic fire a few years ago that destroyed a substantial proportion of the collection. It was a very embarrassing event and little information has been released about just how much has been destroyed and lost forever. Edited 25 February by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Phil Posted 27 February Author Share Posted 27 February Was blackening badges likely for camouflage during the First World War? PS - Wasn't that fire at the Royal Surreys? I thought the Buffs museum had merged with the National Army Museum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 27 February Share Posted 27 February (edited) 7 minutes ago, Old Phil said: Was blackening badges likely for camouflage during the First World War? PS - Wasn't that fire at the Royal Surreys? I thought the Buffs museum had merged with the National Army Museum. There was no order to blacken badges as far as I’ve been able to ascertain from research, partly I think because specifically black badges were directly associated with rifles units. There were from time-to-time orders not to polish badge’s though, and this was a policy prepared for in advance, in that it had been stipulated that soldiers badges were to be made of ‘gilding metal’, a copper/zinc alloy whose properties led it to become a dull brown colour when not polished. You might be right about the Museum, I had thought it included all the regiments of the old Queen’s Regiment (pre PWRR), but perhaps the Kent regiments had extracted themselves. A very wise move if they did! Edited 27 February by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Phil Posted 29 February Author Share Posted 29 February I think we've squeezed as much as we can out of this query, so thanks again and I will keep an eye out for any other evidence. There is a PWRR and Queen's Regiment Museum at Dover, but the main collections of the earlier regiments all had separate homes. Unfortunately they have not fared well: the Queen's Surreys were hit by that fire, the Buffs and the Middlesex were absorbed by the NAM and the Royal Sussex only exists online. Only the Royal West Kents still have their own displays, inside Maidstone Museum. Regards Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 29 February Share Posted 29 February (edited) 2 hours ago, Old Phil said: I think we've squeezed as much as we can out of this query, so thanks again and I will keep an eye out for any other evidence. There is a PWRR and Queen's Regiment Museum at Dover, but the main collections of the earlier regiments all had separate homes. Unfortunately they have not fared well: the Queen's Surreys were hit by that fire, the Buffs and the Middlesex were absorbed by the NAM and the Royal Sussex only exists online. Only the Royal West Kents still have their own displays, inside Maidstone Museum. Regards Phil Thank you Phil, it’s interesting to get an update on the current state of the museums. I used to follow their fortunes closely, but lost track after the two phases of amalgamations in the early 1990s (options for change) and early 2000s (frontline first). For what it’s worth I’m fairly positive about my comments regarding the (specifically) ‘blackening’ of badges (caveat: not ordinarily already black). Regards, FS Edited 29 February by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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