TheDamIrish Posted 22 February Share Posted 22 February (edited) Hi all, new member here, but have been consuming all the great content on his forum as I've recently become invested in the story about my great-grandfather. I'm hoping someone with more knowledge on the subject and available resources can help me as I'm trying to piece together his story during the Great War. He was a British soldier(enlisted 1907) and a PoW for a few years in Germany. He was a member of the BEF, disembarkation date was Aug 29th 1914. He was captured at Ypres on Nov 1st 1914. I managed to find Red Cross records of his internment in Gottingen in Aug 1915 and Cassel in Jun 1917. The one piece of the puzzle I can not determine is when he was repatriated back to Ireland/England. I have trawled through all the repatriation records on the ICRC website, index: "R 50000-53543", but unfortunately I could not find his name amongst the thousands of individuals. I'm desperate to find this specific record as it would bring closure to his story, which has largely been unknown and forgotten over time. Name: Pte. Donoghue, Cornelius(C, Con, Corn) Regiment: Irish Guards, Royal Irish Regiment Regimental Number: 2878 Date of Discharge: Mar 3rd 1919 I have his pension records from 1919 onwards. He raised a family upon his return from the war and passed away in 1965. Additionally if there are any other records of his service or experiences during the war, it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you very much. Edited 22 February by TheDamIrish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewSid Posted 22 February Share Posted 22 February (edited) I have not found him listed on the casualty returns for repatriated POWs. As he was in the Irish Guards you are most fortunate. Have you applied for his full service record which likely survives and equally have you read the war diary for his time in France? Andy Edited 22 February by AndrewSid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDamIrish Posted 22 February Author Share Posted 22 February Thanks Andy. No, I have not applied for his full service record nor read the war diary. Where can I source these? "most fortunate" - May I ask why? In terms of being a casualty, it does state on his pension record that he had two disabilities: 1. GunShot Wound Thigh 2. I can't decipher this handwriting. Any idea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 22 February Admin Share Posted 22 February Neurasthenia-shell shock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewSid Posted 22 February Share Posted 22 February (edited) 4 minutes ago, TheDamIrish said: "most fortunate" - May I ask why? Most WW1 service records were destroyed in the Second World War during a Luftwaffe bombing raid. The Guards stored theirs separately. You have a lot you can still research on him.: http://www.researchingww1.co.uk/irish-guards-ww1#:~:text=The Irish Guards service records,of the next of kin. There are some Guards Regiment experts on here if we can draw their eye in due course. Edited 22 February by AndrewSid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDamIrish Posted 22 February Author Share Posted 22 February Thanks very much Michelle. I was thrown by the middle symbol, always thought it was "&". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 22 February Admin Share Posted 22 February https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7351965 https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7351838 War diaries in the links, free to download after free registration. Happy reading! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 22 February Share Posted 22 February Many service records held by the Brigade of Guards were transferred to the MOD in September 2018, and it is my understanding they have since been transferred to The National Archives UK at Kew. They have lots of records, many of which have not been added to their catalogue. A FoI request should reveal whether they have a copy of your Great Grandfather's service record. How can I request access to a service record? We’ve created special access request forms for the service records: Individuals born over 115 years ago, presumed deceased (open records) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDamIrish Posted 22 February Author Share Posted 22 February Thanks again all - I've been down the rabbit hole on those links you provided. Great stuff! Keith - which option would be better to get the service records, using your link for FOI or applying through this site? https://www.apply-deceased-military-record.service.gov.uk/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 22 February Share Posted 22 February It is my belief that you will be told the MOD no longer have the record, so that is why I posted the link. I think your link will result in you being told to contact The National Archives UK via the link that I provided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDamIrish Posted 22 February Author Share Posted 22 February Ok Keith, thanks for info. I've just applied for both, hopefully will get an update on it soon. It says it could take 1 year to process the request.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 22 February Share Posted 22 February In prior years, it would take a year for the Army Personnel Centre to process a record request. When it was announced that the records would be transferred to Kew, it does seem to have sparked a lot of interest, to the point that they were not adequately staffed to deal with the volume of incoming requests. I have researched a number of POWs. Whilst some of them do have a surviving service record, it is not always the case that repatriation details have been recorded. I have heard of at least one POW who left their camp and walked back to England. I would be interested to hear from other forum members experiences. Was he repatriated in early 1919, at a time when the repatriation lists were no longer being published? That is a suggestion with no source-based evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDamIrish Posted 22 February Author Share Posted 22 February I'm thinking along the same lines - my guesstimate is he repatriated in Jan 1919, took the two months leave that was granted to returning service members and then discharged at the end of that leave which would line up with his record of discharge in Mar 1919. Nevertheless I'm really hoping there is an official repatriation record to be found, so I can indubitably book-end his war story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDamIrish Posted 22 February Author Share Posted 22 February Keith - while I was scanning through the ICRC repatriation records, I was only paying attention to the "Foot Guards" groups as it seemed to be the only one that covered Irish Guards members.....do you think he could have been listed under a different regiment/grouping? If so I could have missed him and will have to scan through them again - I really hope not as it took me many hours! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 22 February Share Posted 22 February Hi, I did a search of the War Office Casualty Lists. They can be consulted for free via NLS. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/144481815 The same data has been put behind a paywall by ForcesWarRecords/Fold3. I performed a search and the search did not return any results for the end of the war. I gather these lists are accessible to FindMyPast/British Newspaper Archives subscribers too. He is neither on the lists provided to the ICRC, nor on the lists published by the War Office. One further post to follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 22 February Share Posted 22 February One trap that we need to be wary of falling into is that these records were not compiled with the express intention of recording for posterity various details that family members would be looking at four generations later. What I compare the navy ratings records with are payslips, as they document time served and pay, and stoppages for offenses. The service record will not necessarily tell you what a person was doing in November 1915, any more than your November payslip will inform the reader as to what ad-hoc projects and business-as-usual tasks you performed for that month. In the nineteenth century, time served in India made a difference for those men who served 18+ years, and for whom a pension entitlement would be calculated. To facilitate this, the service record has the MILITARY HISTORY SHEET. At the top of this is the Service at Home and Abroad table. What I have seen for an Old Contemptible POW is that, from an accounting perspective, the soldier was "B.E.F." from the date of disembarkation at Le Havre, up until the date in December 1918. Although this has not been recorded on the table, it has been written on the reverse of the B.103 So, whilst the specifics of his return may not be recorded, I would imagine the date of his return to England would be inferred from what is recorded on his service record. This is the service record for Edward Heathfield, 15254, Private South Wales Borderers. Image courtesy FindMyPast My mistake, not an 'Old Contemptible', as not a recipient of the 1914 Star with clasp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDamIrish Posted 22 February Author Share Posted 22 February (edited) According to one official record, "War Badge Roll of Honors" . his discharge date was 24th Mar 1919. So per you reply above, should we infer this was possibly the actual date of his return to Ireland/England? Edited 22 February by TheDamIrish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 22 February Share Posted 22 February Image of Silver War Badge roll courtesy of Ancestry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 22 February Share Posted 22 February Sheet IG/222 Archive reference WO 329/3087 Image of Silver War Badge roll courtesy of Ancestry When an image gets posted on the forum, its source should be attributed. This is in accordance with terms and conditions of using Ancestry, and is a forum rule. It's not readily apparent as a new forum user. Please do post the image, but please mention where it came from, too. I see that for Edward Heathfield, 15254, Private South Wales Borderers, he was repatriated to Dover on 11 December 1918, appears in the War Office Casualty List dated 21st December 1918 (a typical time lag), and he is transferred to the Class Z reserve on 14 March 1919. This is par for the course for what I have seen with POWs, who are repatriated at a date between November 1918 and January 1919, but are not discharged until March or April 1919. In answer to your question, we will not know until such time as his service record is sent to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDamIrish Posted 22 February Author Share Posted 22 February That's the one, wasn't sure if I could post it here. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 22 February Share Posted 22 February So, from March 1919 to 22 November 1919, this was the final part of his 12 years service with the Irish Guards, spent in the Army Reserve as a civilian. He may have decided not to extend his time as a reservist by 4 years up to 22 November 1923, but again, we won't know this until the service record is sent to you. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDamIrish Posted 22 February Author Share Posted 22 February Thanks for the clarification again Keith. That was my next and final question for now, what other information will be on the service record which I have not so far gathered from online sources(Ancestry, Find My Past, ICRC, Fold3 etc.)? Would it have further details on the repatriation for instance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 22 February Share Posted 22 February (edited) 7 hours ago, TheDamIrish said: I have his pension records from 1919 onwards. Welcome to GWF. Glad you have found them Pension index card Pension ledger page [front and rear - access rear using the 'right' > arrow - lots of detail] Grant by Military Service (Civil Liabilities) Department [two images] £20 towards purchase of a donkey cart and harness M Edited 22 February by Matlock1418 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 22 February Share Posted 22 February 17 minutes ago, TheDamIrish said: Thanks for the clarification again Keith. That was my next and final question for now, what other information will be on the service record which I have not so far gathered from online sources(Ancestry, Find My Past, ICRC, Fold3 etc.)? Would it have further details on the repatriation for instance? 1 hour ago, Keith_history_buff said: I have researched a number of POWs. Whilst some of them do have a surviving service record, it is not always the case that repatriation details have been recorded. 55 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said: So, whilst the specifics of his return may not be recorded, I would imagine the date of his return to England would be inferred from what is recorded on his service record. You never know quite what you will find in a British Army Other Ranks service record. It depends on a case by case basis as to what has survived. To leave the subject of repatriation, there exists an older service record for him, archive reference WO 96/368. He enlisted at Clonmel on 15 Oct 1906 in The Royal Irish Regiment 4th militia Battalion, 4997. He was discharged on 23 November 1907, in order to enlist under Regular terms of service in the Irish Guards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 22 February Share Posted 22 February 48 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said: So, from March 1919 to 22 November 1919, this was the final part of his 12 years service with the Irish Guards, spent in the Army Reserve as a civilian. He may have decided not to extend his time as a reservist by 4 years up to 22 November 1923, but again, we won't know this until the service record is sent to you. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/ No, this statement of mine is wrong. He was going to be released to Class Z, but upon undergoing a medical examination he was instead medically discharged. I've come across a lot of men at this point in time failing their medical, with the result they are medically discharged in Spring 1919 and appearing on the Silver War Badge rolls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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