Private James Arthur Bannister, 41296, 6th Battalion Leicestershire Regiment

[Neville Gill]

Dear all,

Please could I ask for help regarding when my grandfather James Arthur Bannister would have gone to France?

There is no surviving Service Record but his Silver War Badge Record (see below) seen on Forces War Records has his service beginning on 13 September 1916. I have been tied in knots with the Group System (Derby Scheme), the National Registration Act (15th July) 1915 and the fact that he was 17 years and 9 months old at the time his service began (b. 30th December 1898).

Is there a time frame for him leaving the Army Reserve and Reserve battalion? (I have 9 months but that is a very rough estimate), are there any tips to help me find out?

As always, I would be very grateful for any thoughts and help,

 

Neville

 

Silver War Badge Record, as seen on Forces War Records (Ancestry).

[Allan1892]

Are you aware that he was a Prisoner of War? Captured at Cambrai on the 22nd March 1918.(image courtesy of Find My Past)

[Neville Gill]

Hello Allan,

thank you for replying, yes I am, I found his International Red Cross Cards on Forces War Records (Ancestry). Although these have him captured at Epehy 26-06-1918 and the Daily Reports in The Times have him as 'Missing' on 28th May 1918.

Nobody in the family knew anything about it?! I wondered how long he'd been in France before he was captured?

Thank you for your kind reply,

Neville

[kenf48]

2 hours ago, Neville Gill said:

There is no surviving Service Record but his Silver War Badge Record (see below) seen on Forces War Records has his service beginning on 13 September 1916. I have been tied in knots with the Group System (Derby Scheme), the National Registration Act (15th July) 1915 and the fact that he was 17 years and 9 months old at the time his service began (b. 30th December 1898).

Is there a time frame for him leaving the Army Reserve and Reserve battalion? (I have 9 months but that is a very rough estimate), are there any tips to help me find out?

Considering the Group Scheme first, this was re-opened by the War Office in an official notice published May 1916.  This example published in the Berkshire Chronicle May 12 1916

Image from BNA on FMP

Turning to Pte Bannister the date you have of 13 September 1916 from the Silver War Badge Records needs caution as that is the date he probably attested under the Scheme and was posted to the Army Reserve 'B'.  It is likely he was mobilised a few months later.  The proclamation for men born in 1898 was issued on January 30 1917.  This example from the Northampton Daily Echo (ibid) 

He would therefore be called up or mobilised in January 1917, presumably falling into the latter category of 'Men who have been enlisted etc". Men were not sent on active service overseas until they had attained the age of nineteen. So for Pte Bannister January 1918.

With the caveat of the dangers of relying on just one service record; you could look for more. Consider the record of 41285 Parkin who was from Rotherham My guess is Bannister was in this draft and given he was from Leeds may even have followed the same path in the UK

.

Image from FMP (will be in Pension Records on Ancestry)

So to answer your question in all probability he joined the BEF in January aged nineteen and was captured at Cambrai just under three months later.

 

[Neville Gill]

Hello Ken,

thank you very much for replying to this and taking the time to respond with such detail. Sorry to bother you further but could I ask how you came across 41285 Parkin?  Sorry if it's a silly question but I don't know?

Thank you for your time and the information Ken, it is very much appreciated.

Neville

[kenf48]

2 hours ago, Neville Gill said:

Sorry to bother you further but could I ask how you came across 41285 Parkin?  Sorry if it's a silly question but I don't know?

 

Near number sampling on Find My Past using wildcards and other search parameters. You can do the same on Ancestry but it’s a lot easier on FMP.

This  can be corroborated with the Medal Rolls to identify the drafts with a couple of outliers this would appear to run from 41280  to 41411 = 131 men at least. Unfortunately the war diary does not give numbers only that the draft and men from the 9th Battalion were used to reorganise the battalion. 

We therefore have in the ‘burnt records’ 41307 Birks (b.1898) who followed a slightly different route (note alphabetical sequence) who was posted to the BEF and the 6th Battalion Leicestershire on the 26 January which together with  41285 brackets Pte Bannister confirming the date he was posted.
 

 

 

[Neville Gill]

Brilliant. Thank you so much Ken, I really appreciate the help and skills tip.

 

Neville

[Matlock1418]

WFA/Fold3 have some pension records for him.

Pension index card for a disability claim offers his final Leicestershire, 41296 number but also 37670 and TR/6/30081  [These, especially the Training Reserve, may offer more about the start of his service]

Discharged 30-5-19. Awarded a £48 Gratuity in June 1919 for an unspecified condition

An address of 10 Vincent St, York Rd, Leeds, is offered for c.1923 I think

M

 

[Neville Gill]

Hello Matlock1418,

I found his Pension Records and his ICRC PoW Cards on WFA/Fold3 but despite going through LLT several times I didn't pick up on 'TR/6/30081' at all. Thank you very much for that. Would I be right in thinking the order of his numbers were Training Reserve 'TR/6/30081', 41296 and then 37670? Was the 37670 given after the war?

I've just looked where Vincent Street is and would you believe it's about half a mile from my house. I used to walk past it everyday walking to school and back!

Thank you very much for your time and help.

Neville

[kenf48]

13 minutes ago, Neville Gill said:

'TR/6/30081', 41296 and then 37670? Was the 37670 given after the war?

 

In the top right corner of Parkin's record posted above you will see he was TR/5/3808 which was written in the space provided so his first number, this was struck through and TR/6/3083 entered above it again struck through  and finally 41286 squeezed in below. Prefixes were often omitted where they had little or no relevance to the administrative document studied. As Pte Bannister was discharged with a SWB as 41296 that was his last number.

Suggest LLT https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/training-reserve/ and linked pages in all likelihood he was given a second number when the TR was reorganised and given his year on Home Service when he moved to a Graduated Battalion with a Regimental affiliation. Finally renumbered at the IBD in France.

As Pte Bannister was from Leeds my guess is the TR/6 number was allocated at Rugely.

 

 

[Matlock1418]

25 minutes ago, Neville Gill said:

Would I be right in thinking the order of his numbers were Training Reserve 'TR/6/30081', 41296 and then 37670? Was the 37670 given after the war?

My thought would be: TR/6/30081, 37670 and then 41296 [The claim would be made under his last regimental/service number].

M

[Bob Davies]

On 21/02/2024 at 12:41, Neville Gill said:

Please could I ask for help regarding when my grandfather James Arthur Bannister would have gone to France?

Hi Neville,

there is some very interesting information from the 6th Battalion War Diary aka WD.

On the morning of 21st March 1918 the German army launched a huge attack against the 110th Leicester Brigade who were defending a small village called Epehy and either side of them.

A thick fog helped the attackers, who sent in a huge barrage of gas, HE and shrapnel shells.

The defenders were vitualy without artilery support from their own lines.

The 6th were to go in and support the 7th and 8th Battalions, which they did.

It soon became apparent that their right flank was in the air as the 16th Brigade holding the right flank had been driven back, they held on valiantly but

by dawn on the 22nd retreat was the only option as they were surrounded.

Cambrai is only about 12 miles due north of Epehy, so that was probably the closest big town name to put on the red cross form.

The WD gives casualty numbers from March 21st to March 31st, which includes 281 ORs missing.

Total casualties of killed wounded missing were 445 ORs and 18 Officers. The 6th Battalions effective strength in 1917 was 1018 ORs and 39 Officers, so they lost nearly half of what they should have started with, as it was they were under manned, even with the  reinforcements from the 9th Battalion.

Screenshot courtesy of the National Archives;

There are a few words I cannot read but these numbers give you an idea of what was happening.

The WD is here, free to download if you register with them, well worth doing.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=WO+95%2F2164%2F1

A book called 'The Tigers, 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th Battalions of the Leicestershire Regiment' by Mathew Richardson (pen and sword)  is worth a read.

It tells you why the 9th Battalion was split up and sent to the other Battalions, all very interesting.

You will no doubt find a copy on Amazon or other site.

Regards, Bob.

 

[Neville Gill]

21 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

My thought would be: TR/6/30081, 37670 and then 41296 [The claim would be made under his last regimental/service number].

M

Thank you so much for this, very helpful.

21 hours ago, kenf48 said:

In the top right corner of Parkin's record posted above you will see he was TR/5/3808 which was written in the space provided so his first number, this was struck through and TR/6/3083 entered above it again struck through  and finally 41286 squeezed in below. Prefixes were often omitted where they had little or no relevance to the administrative document studied. As Pte Bannister was discharged with a SWB as 41296 that was his last number.

Suggest LLT https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/training-reserve/ and linked pages in all likelihood he was given a second number when the TR was reorganised and given his year on Home Service when he moved to a Graduated Battalion with a Regimental affiliation. Finally renumbered at the IBD in France.

As Pte Bannister was from Leeds my guess is the TR/6 number was allocated at Rugely.

 

 

Thank you very much for the information and the link Ken, I will get on it now while it is fresh in my head. I am very grateful.

[Neville Gill]

Hello Bob,

thank you so much for the background information it is extremely useful. I am going to move on to the WD now I know when he went to France, thank you for the link. 

13 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

Hi Neville,

there is some very interesting information from the 6th Battalion War Diary aka WD.

On the morning of 21st March 1918 the German army launched a huge attack against the 110th Leicester Brigade who were defending a small village called Epehy and either side of them.

A thick fog helped the attackers, who sent in a huge barrage of gas, HE and shrapnel shells.

The defenders were vitualy without artilery support from their own lines.

The 6th were to go in and support the 7th and 8th Battalions, which they did.

It soon became apparent that their right flank was in the air as the 16th Brigade holding the right flank had been driven back, they held on valiantly but

by dawn on the 22nd retreat was the only option as they were surrounded.

Cambrai is only about 12 miles due north of Epehy, so that was probably the closest big town name to put on the red cross form.

The WD gives casualty numbers from March 21st to March 31st, which includes 281 ORs missing.

Total casualties of killed wounded missing were 445 ORs and 18 Officers. The 6th Battalions effective strength in 1917 was 1018 ORs and 39 Officers, so they lost nearly half of what they should have started with, as it was they were under manned, even with the  reinforcements from the 9th Battalion.

Screenshot courtesy of the National Archives;

There are a few words I cannot read but these numbers give you an idea of what was happening.

The WD is here, free to download if you register with them, well worth doing.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=WO+95%2F2164%2F1

A book called 'The Tigers, 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th Battalions of the Leicestershire Regiment' by Mathew Richardson (pen and sword)  is worth a read.

It tells you why the 9th Battalion was split up and sent to the other Battalions, all very interesting.

You will no doubt find a copy on Amazon or other site.

Regards, Bob.

 

Hello Bob, thank you so much for the fantastic information regarding the WD. I was going to get on to that once I was clear of his journey to France and dates, which Kenf48 and Matlock1418 have so kindly explained. Thanks also for the book recommendation, I've just ordered it. Amazing stuff.