RFC & RAF Man - Pte 1. George Arthur Webb - Service No. 50685

[TomP]

Hi all

I was wondering if anybody could assist me in a bit of research regarding a chap I have a medal pairing to (along with his post-war ISM).

His medals are marked: 50685 Pte 1. G. A. Webb. R. A. F. and as I understand it the Pte 1 rank equates to Private 1st Class? His IWM medal issued post Great War confirms his full name as George Arthur Webb. I am unsure in which profession he earned is ISM. 

The only documentation I have for George is a muster roll showing a transfer from the RFC to the RAF as a Private 2 - this includes a 'Date of Joining' of 07/12/1916 - I presume this would be his joining the forces as a whole since the RAF didn't come into being until April 1918? It also seems to show his previous role as K.B.S (B.P) which I believe means Kite Balloon Section (Balloon Party)? Another record I found on Forces War Records seems to allude to balloon service. 

I note I couldn't locate a MIC for this chap, is this common with RFC/RAF soldiers who didn't serve in say an infantry regiment/army corps previously? Or is it simply missing. 

Could anybody possible help me in deciphering anymore of what I already have, or ideally even assist me in finding even more! I would love to know more about this chap who served in one of the branches working with real turning point in history technology.

Thanks in advance for any help, I look forward to seeing what you can help me find. 

All the best
Tom

 

The Medals:

 

The muster sheet:

Source: Forces War Records

Index from online:

Source: Forces War Records 

[clive_hughes]

Hi,

Just briefly, the Imperial Service Medal was mainly issued to Civil Servants (quite a broad category, I know), usually for long service.  This one was also issued whilst India was still part of the Empire (...Et Indiae Imp.) so not later than about 1948. 

I can't recall at this moment whether ISMs were listed in the London Gazette - I suspect not.    

[Allan1892]

2 hours ago, TomP said:

I note I couldn't locate a MIC for this chap

As far as I am aware, there are no MICs for RFC / RAF men of the WW1 -- medals awarded are shown on the service record of the man concerned. In Webb's case, he has a two page record with his medals shown on page two, bottom right corner. (images courtesy of Find My Past)

[ForeignGong]

Hi

This could possibly be him

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/35549/supplement/2019

[TomP]

5 minutes ago, ForeignGong said:

Hi

This could possibly be him

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/35549/supplement/2019

Hi @ForeignGong Thats a great find thank you! I would think you're probably right based on the required years service and his occupation prior to enlisting:

Source: Find My Past

 

@Allan1892 Thank you for finding this, I think you're right as it seems to say 'British War & Victory' but I can't actually make it out that clearly due to quality. Does it list medal roll pages can you see? Maybe I could try and obtain copies of this as well!

Cheers both
Tom

[Keith_history_buff]

Hi Tom,

The airman rank of Private 2nd Class existed from 1 April 1918 to 31 December 1918. It was the entry rank for non-technical and non-clerical airmen of the Royal Air Force. It was replaced with the rank of Aircraftman 2nd Class from 1 January 1919 onwards.

Below is a table of the airmen ranks and associated pay. This was republished in Flight magazine.

[Keith_history_buff]

There was an order to retrospectively promote airmen who had been serving for longer.

“Air Ministry Weekly Orders 753 – 791”, dated 2^nd August 1918

 

755. – Remustering of 3^rd Air Mechanics, R.F.C.

All 3^rd Class Air Mechanics, Non-Technical, including Storemen, of the Royal Flying Corps, will if they entered that Corps before 1^st October 1917, be mustered in the Royal Air Force as Private, 1^st Class, or, (if Clerks in the R.F.C.) as Clerk 2^nd Class, with effect from 1^st April 1918.

[Keith_history_buff]

5 hours ago, TomP said:

I note I couldn't locate a MIC for this chap, is this common with RFC/RAF soldiers who didn't serve in say an infantry regiment/army corps previously? Or is it simply missing. 

Hi Tom,

I noticed the following comment recently, on the website of The National Archives UK

Why can’t I find what I’m looking for?

If members of the Royal Flying Corps did not see service overseas until 1916 or later, you will not find a medal card here. The Air Ministry maintained these medal records and they have not been transferred to The National Archives.

I presume that these medal rolls have been lost.

There should likewise be the names of the 12,000 recipients of the WW1 Silver War Badges issued by the Air Ministry on medal rolls. All that has survived are four pages covering RAF SWB badges 9426 to 9492 inclusive. These have not been digitised.

[Allan1892]

2 hours ago, TomP said:

but I can't actually make it out that clearly due to quality. Does it list medal roll pages can you see?

It reads 'France from 12.2.17 to 25.3.19 Pte. RAF British War & Victory 6168 13/9/21 Page 67 Book 10' but as the above stated:

'If members of the Royal Flying Corps did not see service overseas until 1916 or later, you will not find a medal card here. The Air Ministry maintained these medal records and they have not been transferred to The National Archives.

I presume that these medal rolls have been lost'

[TomP]

17 hours ago, Keith_history_buff said:

755. – Remustering of 3^rd Air Mechanics, R.F.C.

All 3^rd Class Air Mechanics, Non-Technical, including Storemen, of the Royal Flying Corps, will if they entered that Corps before 1^st October 1917, be mustered in the Royal Air Force as Private, 1^st Class, or, (if Clerks in the R.F.C.) as Clerk 2^nd Class, with effect from 1^st April 1918.

Thanks @Keith_history_buff Very interesting. This explains why on the muster I have he is ranked as Pte 2 but then his medals list him as Pte 1st Class, that's because he joined before October 1917 and qualifies for the above. 

 

17 hours ago, Keith_history_buff said:

I presume that these medal rolls have been lost.

Well found thank you, seems like this is gone for good then, shame. 

 

16 hours ago, Allan1892 said:

It reads 'France from 12.2.17 to 25.3.19 Pte. RAF British War & Victory 6168 13/9/21 Page 67 Book 10' but as the above stated:

'If members of the Royal Flying Corps did not see service overseas until 1916 or later, you will not find a medal card here. The Air Ministry maintained these medal records and they have not been transferred to The National Archives.

I presume that these medal rolls have been lost'

Thanks @Allan1892 for the clarity, I definitely couldn't read that! Interesting that he was over in France for quite some time then. 

 

Based on what I have seen about mention of his part in the balloon section, is there anymore we can find about this? I did spot from his papers he was 34 at the point of enlistment so likely too old to be flying anything even if he had qualified as a pilot - and we also know he was in the RFC as Air Mechanic 3rd Class so definitely a technical role and not up in the air. I just wonder if we can better establish his role in the force.

Possibly not, I am already very happy with what you have helped me to find. 

Cheers all
Tom