Leslie Walter Young, Dorset, Cavalry, MGC, France.

[Ben Siebach]

I am the grandson of a British soldier who served from 1916 to 1919.  I will be visiting northern France summer 2024 with the purpose of visiting the places he served.  I have been unable to determine when and where he served.  Here are the clues I have:

Newspaper article excerpt profiling my grandparents' visit to England after moving to America:

"Eldest of three sons of the late Mr. and Mrs. Walter Young, who used to live in Bristol Road, Sherborne, Leslie attended the old school in Long Street and won his way to Foster's School, Sherborne (1910-14). Two years later, he volunteered for service with the Dorset Yeomanry, was commissioned and transferred to the cavalry machine-gun corps, with which he served in France."

Attached is his medals card (lower left entry).  

My grandfather rarely spoke of the war.  When I was a small child, he once described his training as a Lancer (he was an avid horseman prior to the war).  He may have been stationed in Ireland.  We have heard he suffered from trench foot and was hospitalized.  

We still have one of his uniform coats, similar to one in the picture, along with the whistle on his chest.  

Any help identifying his unit and places served is greatly appreciated.  

Ben Siebach, Texas, USA

Leslie Young Medals Card.pdf

[George Rayner]

Welcome to the forum and good luck with your research.

There appears very little to go on from an initial look through various sites.

One thing I note is that his medal card indicates that he 'landed' in France in July 1918 so his time there was relatively short.

Whether we are looking for Dorset Regiment records or MGC records I am not expert enough to know. Clever people will be along in due course I'm sure

George

[George Rayner]

Using fold3 he is in the Army List 1918-no more specific date given

Full Name Young, L.W.

Nationality British

Information Employed with Machine Gun Corps.

Rank Name 2nd Lieutenant

Service British Army

Regiment Regiment of Yeomanry, Dorset (Queen's Own) (Hussars)

Seniority Date 25 Sep 1917

Conflict Period World War I

Served For United Kingdom

George

[George Rayner]

And courtesy of Ancestry he is in a Medal Roll

George

 

[Michelle Young]

Looks like his medals are inscribed to MGC 

[kenf48]

He is on the Dorset Yeomanry Roll as posted above. The MIC states 'attd' or 'attached' to the MGC (Cavalry). As the medals were administered by the Yeomanry that means he was demobilised from that unit.  We don't know when he retuned to them as the fourth column was not completed.

The MGC (Cavalry) were organised into Squadrons. Each MG Cavalry Squadron had about a dozen officers. These were drawn, in the main, from Cavalry units within the respective Cavalry Division.  Unfortunately we know the 1/1 Dorset Yeomanry were in Palestine so we can't make that connection. The 2/1st as the OP has noted were in Ireland in early 1918, which is where we would expect to find newly commissioned 2/Lt Young https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30335/supplement/10594 (His service record does not appear to be at the TNA and was probably weeded). 

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-yeomanry-regiments-of-1914-1918/dorset-yeomanry-queens-own/

As he went to France in July 1918 the OP may wish to download the war diaries for each Squadron which are available at TNA for free if registered (see banner at top of the page). You can ignore the Indian Army units which in any event do not cover this period.  You may find him as a named junior officer I've looked at a few but can't see him. You can start at 2 Squadron bottom of the 1st page. A maximum of ten items can be downloaded at any one time under fair dealing rules.  It is tedious and laborious but is one possibility to identify his unit. It also shows that they were usually training in August and September but by October the cavalry were participating in the war of movement that characterised the 100 Days Campaign in France and Flanders.

Even if you don't find him it gives an indication of his war., though not sure how he would contract 'trench foot' though there is reference to frequent outbreaks of PUO  (Pyrexia of Unknown Origin) or 'trench fever'.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r/1?_q=machine gun squadron (cavalry)&_col=200&_cr1=WO 95&_hb=tna

He was back home in 1921 living on his father's farm but like so many who had served in the war listed as 'unemployed' (whilst his two younger brothers were working on the farm).

Fine photographs, is there any information on the blurred group photo?

 

[Ben Siebach]

Thanks to all for the valued and valuable input!  I have downloaded the war diaries and begun reading them for clues.  

Unfortunately, I do not have any additional information from the back of the blurry photo.  I have reached out to other family members to see if someone has the original. Mine is a copy.  

I will let y'all know what I find.  Thanks again for the engagement and information. 

Ben

[Ben Siebach]

My sister found a discharge document.

[George Rayner]

Can anybody find #457 Dorset Yeomanry 'Young'?

And as a passing thought why would he be 'Dorset Yeomanry/457' if he was a Lieutenant?

George

[AndrewSid]

Unusual for a man to remain with the same unit after commissioning but it happened occasionally 

Edited 22 February by AndrewSid

[kenf48]

He was attached to the MGC (Cavalry) for service in France but it appears remained on the Dorset Yeomanry roster as evidenced by the Medal Roll.  It appears despite his service with the Corps he remained a Territorial Force soldier and did not transfer, hence the disembodiment.

I am not sure about the '457'  reference because if it is a regimental number it is at odds with his age and the newspaper cutting.

On 18/02/2024 at 04:03, Ben Siebach said:

Newspaper article excerpt profiling my grandparents' visit to England after moving to America:

"Eldest of three sons of the late Mr. and Mrs. Walter Young, who used to live in Bristol Road, Sherborne, Leslie attended the old school in Long Street and won his way to Foster's School, Sherborne (1910-14). Two years later, he volunteered for service with the Dorset Yeomanry, was commissioned and transferred to the cavalry machine-gun corps, with which he served in France."

453 enlisted under T.F. terms (i.e. 4 years Home Service subsequently extended) on  8th April 1910

459 enlisted as above on 4th May 1910

Lt. Young was just starting school in 1910, unfortunately the discharge certificate does not take us further forward as to which Squadron he served with.

 

[FROGSMILE]

I think that the blurred group photograph was almost certainly taken whilst he served with (probably) the second line unit of the regiment and thus 2/1st Queen’s Own Dorset Yeomanry (Hussars).  From the LongLongTrail adjunct to this forum:

2/1st

“Formed September 1914, and remained in UK until in July 1916, converted into a Cyclist unit. Took over the horses from 2/1st West Kent Yeomanry in November 1916, becoming a mounted unit again. Became Cyclists again in September 1917, and moved to Ireland in early 1918.”

There’s an excellent collection of regimental photographs publicly accessible here: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php/?id=100079690813092  I don’t know if it shows the first line unit 1/1st that deployed to the Middle East and famously carried out the last cavalry charge of any yeomanry cavalry (as opposed to regular) regiment, against Senussi tribesmen, in 1916.

The regiment was distinguished visually by a green band that they wore around their khaki service dress caps behind the cap badge.  There are potted histories for a number of regimental members that have been collated here by the local museum that might be of passing interest to you (perhaps you can add your forebear at some point): https://shaftesbury-remembers.goldhillmuseum.org.uk/regiment/dorset-yeomanry/

As regards the Machine Gun Corps - Cavalry Branch, you can read about them here: https://vickersmg.blog/in-use/british-service/the-british-army/machine-gun-corps/machine-gun-corps-cavalry/

It seems to me likely that your forebear was posted to the Machine Gun Corps Cavalry Branch after completion of his officer training in an officer cadet battalion (OCB).  I imagine that if he was in Ireland at the time, then he probably attended the Number 7 OCB at Moore Park, Kilworth, County Cork, although there were many other OCBs in Great Britain too.  You can read about their typical training regime here: https://heartheboatsing.com/2023/04/14/the-oxbridge-ocbs-producing-officers-and-oarsmen/

 

 

Edited 22 February by FROGSMILE

[Ben Siebach]

I am having trouble uploading additional images.  

 

From the edge of one of Leslie's medals, we can read

"345 L.C", then a small symbol that looks like an FL with a bar underneath it.  Followed by his initials.  Would that lead to a clue of his service? 

When I rectify the file upload problem, I will post pictures of that edge inscription and other medals.  

[Ben Siebach]

Images of medals and insignia.  I am hopeful that someone can decipher the meaning of the edge inscription, which leads to a clue of Leslie's service in France.  

[George Rayner]

To me the image on the edge of the medal shows

345 L. Cpl G.E. Young

George

[kenf48]

What you have posted is The Imperial Yeomanry Long Service and Good Conduct Medal 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Yeomanry_Long_Service_Medal

and the British War Medal awarded to, as George has observed ,a L. Cpl G.E.Young.  A slip which accompanied these medals noted "To avoid unnecessary correspondence, kindly note that the Regtl. particulars inscribed on the British War & Victory Medals are those held on first disembarkation in a theatre of war. The rank is the highest attained, PROVIDED IT WAS HELD IN A THEATRE OF WAR OR OVERSEAS PRIOR TO 11.11.18. Appointments such as L/Sgts., L/Cpl/, etc. are not inscribed on Medals, SPECIAL NOTE TO THOSE WHO SERVED IN RIFLE REGTS. 'Rifleman" is not inscribed on War Medals, "Pte." being the correct designation of this rank.'

So his medals should be named to Lieut L.W. Young as denoted by the Asterix on the Medal Index Card attached courtesy of Ancestry. We know L.W. Young held commissioned rank in France and on the rim of his medal it should state his name and rank. There is no indication, as often happened the medals were returned for amendment/adjustment we must therefore assume Lt L.W. Young's medals were correctly named to his satisfaction.

As the Roll posted above shows Lt Young was also entitled to the Victory Medal but not the Imperial Yeomanry Medal I'm not a medal person but apparently the name is impressed on the rim. 

I think we have some crossed wires here.

 

[FROGSMILE]

Interesting that LCpl is inscribed on the rim despite it being expressly made clear that it’s not a rank. 

[RaySearching]

Am I missing something

The British war medal photo  is impressed G.E.Young,  not L.W Young as medal card

 

[George Rayner]

My question precisely. Although not a perfect photograph clear enough I think

George

[Ben Siebach]

@ RaySearching

I believe that is a "C" rather than an "G".  My understanding, apocryphal family history, is that Leslie lived in the US by the time an awards dinner and medals presentation rolled around.  His younger brother, Cyril, attended in his stead and the medals were inscribed in Cyril's name for some reason.  Cyril was too young to fight in the war, so we know he didn't earn the medals.  

 

[RaySearching]

A candidate

C.E not G.E

[George Rayner]

The letters appear different…that is the ‘C’ in Cpl and the G in the name initials.

George

[Ben Siebach]

You both are impressive sleuths!  Worthy of Agatha Christie and Sherlock Holmes!  Does that run in the water there? 

I just jumped on Ancestry to look for his brother. Cyril Eugene was his name.  Born in 1898, so actually old enough for the war, but our understanding is that he didn't go into the service.  Leslie was the eldest and I believe Cyril stayed home to tend the farm.  When Leslie came home, familial conflict was severe enough to drive him to the US and for Cyril to inherit the farm.  I am stretching for details here.  These are issues that Leslie didn't like to talk about.  

I agree that one instance appears to be a "C" and the other a "G". 

[RaySearching]

The inclusion of the unusual "rank"* L/Cpl on the medal rim suggests it may be a self award , although i may be wrong

* I believe(L/Cpl was not a rank it was an appointment

could you show us the other side of the medal rim please

 

Ray

Edited 7 March by RaySearching

[kenf48]

15 hours ago, Ben Siebach said:

 My understanding, apocryphal family history, is that Leslie lived in the US by the time an awards dinner and medals presentation rolled around.  His younger brother, Cyril, attended in his stead and the medals were inscribed in Cyril's name for some reason.  Cyril was too young to fight in the war, so we know he didn't earn the medals.  

As previously noted in 1921 when the Census was taken Leslie was described as 'out of work' whereas the two younger brothers were described as 'Farmer's Assistant' employed by their father Walter. I seldom dismiss family stories out of hand but that is rubbish.  There was no 'medal presentation' for the war medals though there were plenty of reunion dinners which were a safety valve for those who served and where they could talk about the war to their old comrades.

The medals photographed above have no connection to Lt.Leslie Young Dorset Yeomanry attached to the MGC (Cavalry) and therefore do not assist in his service.  He is ruled out of the Imperial Yeomanry Long Service and Good Conduct Medal by virtue of his age and service which was for the Duration of the War (10 years service and 10 annual camps) and the BWM by virtue of the naming if that is the BWM shown.

Officers had to apply for their medals. The Medal Index Card shows Lt. Young applied for his medals on the 3rd November 1921 and asked them to be sent to 22 Newland Sherborne, Dorset.  The British War Medal and Victory Medal were despatched to him against an Issue Voucher dated  11 January 1922.

His address, named to his father, in the 1921 Census was (courtesy of FMP);-

 

What is the naming on the rim of the Imperial Yeomanry Medal? Or is that what has been posted? If it is it makes more sense because as noted above  L/CPL was not shown on the war medals but was shown on the Yeomanry Medal, it may belong to a relative. According to this article the first medals were issued in 1904 and the last medal was issued in February 1917. Compared to the 6 million 'war medals' only 1,674 Yeomanry Medals were issued so it is considered quite rare.