PPCLI Posted 19 April , 2005 Share Posted 19 April , 2005 Hello everyone, I have just replied to a thread in the 'Cemeteries and memorials' section (War Memorials) - what criteria were used for deciding on which memorial a fallen soldier should be listed?. For example, I have stumbled across an officer who, by birthplace, would of been eligible to be listed on my village memorial - but isn't. Of course, I don't know if he is listed anywhere else. Could people give me any information they can on: Lt/Capt/Major Minden Charles Cardigan PINCHING, Dragoon Guards (Queen's Bays). The info I have on him so far is that he was commisioned as 2nd Lt. Dragoon Guards (Queen's Bays), served in Boer War (received King's medal with five clasps), served on Western Front, wounded twice, awarded Croix de Guerre, and died 20th April 1917, aged 35. Also, from CWGC he was married and was buried at Tilford (All Saints) Churchyard, Surrey. More details would be appreciated - where educated, married, residence, etc. A photograph would be great. Also, showing my ignorance, what is the significance of 5 Clasps? Thanks, Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
22402947 Posted 19 April , 2005 Share Posted 19 April , 2005 I think you mean the Queens South Africa Medal with 5 bars, the Kings South Africa Medal only had 2 bars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPCLI Posted 19 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 19 April , 2005 Quite possibly, I'm sure you are correct - I couldn't argue the point. As I said, I am not very up on that side of things. I only copied out what was written on a Roll of Honour. As for 5 bars, were all the Queen's South Africa Medals issued with 5 bars? What does the number of bars signify? Cheers, Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Nulty Posted 20 April , 2005 Share Posted 20 April , 2005 Stuart All I can find is that in the 1881 census, living at Milton in Gravesend, Kent, Milden's father, Adam Park Pinching, 35, is a "Captain in 20th Regt.". He had married Elizabeth Gladstone Fildes in Brighton just before the census, the marriage being recorded in Q1/1881. The 1901 census shows the 19 year old Minden Pinching to be a Lieutenant in the Queen's Bays, single and located at the barracks in Aldershot. This census also shows that he was born in Scotland, and that he was still single. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Nulty Posted 20 April , 2005 Share Posted 20 April , 2005 Stuart Also found a few good references to Pinching here http://www.qdg.org.uk/maintext/worldwaronepage2.htm Including a note on the fact that he died in London from the effects of an operation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 20 April , 2005 Share Posted 20 April , 2005 1891 Census Minden Charles C "Pinchins", age 9 Born "Kerwick Ker Keendlingtts, Scotland" Residence 18 Queens Gate Gardens, Kensington. Mother Elizabeth Gladstone Pinching, Widow, 45 (?) (Transcribed as 15 with surname "Rinchiuso"!), born Ardwick Manchester Sister Agnes Mary Gladstone <??Flora??>, 27 (?) Surname Transcribed as "Flora" - could be anything, born somewhere in Lancashire As you can probably tell, the handwriting on the Census form is not good... Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPCLI Posted 20 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 20 April , 2005 Hello Stephen, Thank you for your replies. I hadn't got as far as searching for census information, I think I was too busy trying to think of ways to find out where he was educated, which may lead to a Roll of Honour and photograph Does 'Officers Died....' give educational details? I had seen the Web link you provided and also another which states that he returned from South Africa on the 19th Nov 1902 on board the Carisbrook Castle. From the information you found in the 1901 census, he couldn't of been in South Africa any more than 18 months. I take it that no 1891 census info probably means that the family were in Scotland at this time. I wonder if they were still in the area where Minden was born? The problem with census info for Scotland is that you have to buy credits up front to even search them, never mind downloading them Ultimately, I would like to find out on which memorial he is listed since he is not on the one in the village nearest to where he was born. Thanks again, Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPCLI Posted 20 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 20 April , 2005 Hey, I spoke too soon! The place of birth should read "Rerrick, Kirkcudbright(shire), Scotland". Seems quite an age gap between him and his sister. Also, his parents were only married 10 years previous. Very bad handwriting probably! So, they weren't in Scotland for very long. Although, he (or his wife/family) must of felt some attachment to the area where he was born for it to be mentioned on the CWGC details and to be in the areas Roll of Honour. Every little bit of information helps. Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 20 April , 2005 Share Posted 20 April , 2005 Adam Park Pinching, born March quarter 1846, Gravesend, Kent, Vol 5, Page 20? (incomplete page reference) Adam Park Pinching, married March quarter 1881, to Elizabeth Gladstone Fildes, Brighton, East Sussex, Vol 2b Page 317 No English record of death. Could be in Scotland or in Army? Steve. EDIT: Although the handwriting is appalling, the elder sister's surname does seem to be different. It could be "Flora" as transcribed. She also seems to be in her twenties. I'll capture an image for you tonight when I get home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Nulty Posted 20 April , 2005 Share Posted 20 April , 2005 It's not "Flora", it's "Fildes". Elizabeth Gladstone Pinching had been married before, and Emma was her daughter from that marriage. In the 1871 census, Elizabeth is widowed and living with her in-laws in Crumpsall, Lancashire.She also has a son John, aged 4 and a daughter Jessie, aged 2 in addition to Agnes, shown as aged 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 20 April , 2005 Share Posted 20 April , 2005 Ah, of course.... Although I'd also suspected that she was married before, I'd looked for Agnes' birth but not looked for the marriage. Darn work. Just doesn't allow you the time. Crumpsall would fit the squiggle that passed for the Enumerator's handwriting on the 1891 Census. That census page is one of the worst I've seen and the transcriber had a bad day, too. Well done, Stephen. Thanks. Steve PS I take it that you mean Agnes not Emma, above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Nulty Posted 20 April , 2005 Share Posted 20 April , 2005 Steve yeah, right, whatever........ Haven't you got work that you should be doing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 20 April , 2005 Share Posted 20 April , 2005 Steve. What, not work? Never! Stuart, The bars were for specific battles or states where the soldier was present. There are apparently up to 26 Bars (5 States, 19 Battles, 2 Years) , though I don't think anyone could qualify for all of them, somehow! A summary of battles and the various bars are here. http://rapidttp.com/milhist/vol023kg.html The Kings South Africa Medal had only bars for "South Africa 1901" and "South Africa 1902", usually both but very rarely only "1902". The War was effectively over by 1900, with all the major engagements fought, but the new King wanted to present his own medal for the War, which did not officially end until 1902. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 20 April , 2005 Share Posted 20 April , 2005 Stuart, Don't know whether you found these entries from the London Gazette: London Gazette 1st May 1917, ref 4157 Croix de Guerre. Major Minden Charles Cardigan Pinching, D.S.O., Dragoon Guards. Search for Pinching result number 9 London Gazette 14th January 1916, ref 573 (published 11-1-16) To be granted the next higher rate of pay, under Article 241 of the Royal Warrant. Major Minden Charles Cardigan Pinching, 2nd Dragoon Guards. Search for Pinching result number 10 London Gazette 12th November 1914 2nd Dragoon Guards (Queen's Bays), Captain Minden C. C. Pinching to be Major. Dated 1st November, 1914. Search for Pinching result number 11 London Gazette 28th August 1914, ref 6795 2nd Dragoon Guards (Queen's Bays), Captain Reginald E. D. Milner, from the half pay list, is restored supernumerary, to Establishment with precedence next below M. C. C. Pinching. Dated 11th August 1914. Search for Pinching result number 12 Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPCLI Posted 20 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 20 April , 2005 Steve and Stephen, Thanks very much for all your detective work. I would appreciate any census images if possible - should I email you off-forum? Ah, the London Gazette, I've never found it easy to work my way around this site. Probably just me! Maybe an unusual name like Pinching makes it a bit easier. The entries are new news to me, thanks. I will be in touch later when I have more time. Cheers, Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Nulty Posted 20 April , 2005 Share Posted 20 April , 2005 Stuart I'm about to go offline for the rest of the day. If Steve gets the images to you later today, then great. If he doesn't, then I'll do them tomorrow. That OK with you, Steve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 20 April , 2005 Share Posted 20 April , 2005 I have trouble with the Gazette search, too. Just happened to work this time! I didn't find mention of his DSO, though that could have been in the Boer War... E-mail me and I'll sort the Census stuff. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 21 April , 2005 Share Posted 21 April , 2005 Hmmm... This site has an index which mentions Major Pinching (It does sound odd when you put it like that, Stuart!). It seems to be selling newspaper reports at £4 a time mentioning what is probably his promotion to Major in 1914 (with Photo) and his KIA in 1917. I don't know of this site apart from a Google search, so I can't comment on what the information provided is like. Up to you really, Stuart. Any other Forum members used this site? http://www.lightage.demon.co.uk/GREATWARINDEX.htm Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPCLI Posted 21 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 21 April , 2005 Hi Steve, I have seen this site before. In fact, I sent a cheque off with SAE for an obituary on 15th Feb and haven't heard anything since! Says on the site that reports are usually obtained in 4/5 weeks. Having said that, my cheque has not been cashed, so maybe they are just busy or my letter got lost in the post. If any other forum member has used this service recently can the let me know if they had any success? Steve - at least I now know that there is a photo of him out there somewhere Cheers, Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 22 April , 2005 Share Posted 22 April , 2005 I have trouble with the Gazette search, too. Just happened to work this time! I didn't find mention of his DSO, though that could have been in the Boer War... E-mail me and I'll sort the Census stuff. Steve. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Creagh and Humphris' book on the DSO states: "Pinching, MCC, (DSO LG 14.1.16) b. 25.10.81, s. of late Capt A Pinching; married Mrs R Warner; one d; educ Wellington College; 2nd Lt, 2nd DG 5.12.00; Lt 8.6.01; Adj 1903-06; Capt 3.4.07; Maj 1.11.14; S African War 1901-02; Queen's Meadl, 5 clasps. He went to France with the original Expdy Force and was twice wounded. After two years and eight months' active service in France he died in a military hospital in London 20.4.17." I'm afraid there is no citation for the DSO. Interesting name - I see his father was in the 20th (Lancashire Fusiliers) who were one of the 6 'Minden regiments', who celebrated the victory over the French (who else?) on 1st August 1759 by decking their head-dress with roses. And, obviously by naming their first-born, too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 22 April , 2005 Share Posted 22 April , 2005 There's always an explanation for even the strangest of names! And, er, slight confession time. Misread the London Gazette for 14.1.16 (published 11.1.16). Should have been "To be Companions of the Distinguished Service Order" not "To be granted next higher rate of pay". Oops! Many apologies, Stuart. Must learn to read the WHOLE page and not rush off for my lunch! At least that solves that mystery... Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPCLI Posted 23 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 23 April , 2005 Steve, Steven and Stephen (is there a pattern developing?), Thank you for all your efforts. Now I know where the name Minden comes from - there had to be a good reason for it really! Together you have filled most of his life/career details. I now just have to try and pin down where and when he was married, which may give me a clue as to which memorial he may be listed on. And a photo to finish things off.... Cheers, Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Nulty Posted 25 April , 2005 Share Posted 25 April , 2005 Stuart Just to compound things a little...... CWGC states "husband of Evelyn P Pinching", and yet Steven's extract from Creagh and Humphries' book states "married Mrs R Warner". Interesting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPCLI Posted 26 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 26 April , 2005 Hi Stephen, Yes, I had noticed the name discrepancy. I found it more confusing than interesting All I can think of is that she either: 1. had been previously married to an R. Warner, or 2. that she married an R. Warner after Minden Pinching died and Creagh and Humphries used her newly married name in their book Possibilities do you think? I don't know either Cheers, Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 26 April , 2005 Share Posted 26 April , 2005 Hi Stephen, Yes, I had noticed the name discrepancy. I found it more confusing than interesting All I can think of is that she either: 1. had been previously married to an R. Warner, or 2. that she married an R. Warner after Minden Pinching died and Creagh and Humphries used her newly married name in their book Possibilities do you think? I don't know either Cheers, Stuart My guess would be that she married a widow, Mrs Warner, whose late husband was Reginald, or Rodney, or something. Her own first name was Evelyn. Remember that until relatively recently, married ladies were known by their husband's whole name - hence Mrs R Warner, rather than Mrs E Warner. I would doubt that Creagh and Humphris would have put a remarried name in..... It would have been too much to hope that the late Mr Warner's name was 'Ramilles'! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now