Use of Captured Rifles

[shippingsteel]

Came across this image in another thread and thought it might be of interest. They are CEF Armourers working in a mobile workshop behind the lines near Vimy Ridge in May 1917.

Interesting photo with lots of amazing detail, but the bit that got my attention was the Gewehr 98 nestled in amongst the SMLE rifles at the front awaiting repairs.

It is the one with the pistol-grip stock and protruding muzzle, and clearly lacking the external magazine of the SMLE. They are high quality images and the detail is easily zoomed in upon.

And so the evidence is there, clearly enough but the obvious question remains why is it there, and were captured weapons routinely put to use in the front line.?

Cheers,  SS

Image Source: Canadian War Museum 19920085 - 192

Edited 17 February by shippingsteel

[Mattr82]

I’d say it’s probably just getting a good cleanup by the armourers. I’ve seen similar photos but with British armourers.

I do recall reading some material online from the AWM that  discussed captured German weapons. There was a pretty big push for the salvage of equipment and this included captured German equipment too. 

I don’t think it was common place at all to use captured German weapons on the front lines. 
 

The Australians as Pozieres did find a Ross Mk.III rifle in the German trenches. That now is in the AWM. that does show that, for some reason, the Germans took some captured rifles with them. 

[4thGordons]

I think I agree with @Matt82 I doubt it was very common as a matter of policy or practice.

IIRC in Hesketh Pritchard's account of the sniper war, there was some fairly extensive comparative testing of enemy rifles that were used in the sniper/marksman role (and their impact on various armoured shields) . Can't tell if this has an optical sight mounted but if it did that might be an explanation.  Although no doubt fairly large amounts of captured ammunition was available I suspect it would have complicated logistics far too much for regular use.

I believe I have read somewhere about captured rifles being collected together and then resupplied to allies and irregulars in other theatres but I can't for the life of me remember where (possibly something about the Arab Revolt - where I know some of the Arisakas ended up but....don't quote me on that.)

 

[Chasemuseum]

There was extensive use of captured weapons on the eastern front. The Austrians in particular captured large quantities of Russian weapons and reissued these as reserve grade weapons.

 

During WW2 large quantities of Italian small arms were captured in North Africa and brought back to Australia. These were then dumped at sea of Sydney before Japan entered the war.  With Japan's entry in the war we then had a huge shortage of small arms. Our equivalent of the Home Guard the VDC were initially armed with the pre-WW1 school cadet Martini rifles. For machine guns we took German maxims from war memorials and converted them to .303 and reissued them.  All after dumping huge quantities of reasonable weapons at sea only months earlier.

Edited 16 February by Chasemuseum
spelling errors

[Pete_C]

It was certainly never British policy or practice to deploy captured small arms in the field. I have read more than one account regarding the use of captured Lewis guns by Germans on the Western Front but I’ve never seen any photo evidence to back this up. The chap on the left in the first photograph wears a British greatcoat, web equipment and SMLE but I suspect that’s simply for the camera.

Pete

 

[4thGordons]

I have a photo which appears non-staged of Germans using Lewis Guns (in AA role) I'll see if I can find it. Chris

Edited 16 February by 4thGordons
add pics

[AOK4]

Hello,

The Germans used captured rifles (Beutegewehre) in large quantities. Especially the Russian Moison Nagant was widely issued to Landsturm units etc. Large quantities of Moisin Nagants were also given/sold to Finland after its independence in 1918.

British arms were used by the Germans as well. I have read about them using captured British rifles for sniping as their own ammo was rationed and captured rifles and ammo were abundantly available. The Lewis gun is of course a well known example of an extensively used Beutegewehr as the Germans lacked a real light machine gun.

Plenty of info on Beutegewehre on the internet and also here:

Jan

[trajan]

Lots of captured Russian Mosin rifles went to Turkey also.

Trajan

[Andrew Upton]

6 hours ago, Pete_C said:

... I have read more than one account regarding the use of captured Lewis guns by Germans on the Western Front but I’ve never seen any photo evidence to back this up....

Previous thread on German use of captured Lewis guns that might be of interest:

 

 

 

[Piper42nd]

23 hours ago, Mattr82 said:

I’d say it’s probably just getting a good cleanup by the armourers. I’ve seen similar photos but with British armourers.

I do recall reading some material online from the AWM that  discussed captured German weapons. There was a pretty big push for the salvage of equipment and this included captured German equipment too. 

I don’t think it was common place at all to use captured German weapons on the front lines. 
 

The Australians as Pozieres did find a Ross Mk.III rifle in the German trenches. That now is in the AWM. that does show that, for some reason, the Germans took some captured rifles with them. 

Mattr82 could you point me toward photos of British armourers?  All I seem to see are Canadian armourers.

Thanks in advance

Harvey 

[Mattr82]

I'll try and dig that photo up. It popped up during one of my deep searches when looking for ordnance records for the Western Front.

Here's an interesting image here from WW1;

"Mehun, France. New Zealand and US soldiers working in the Ordnance Repair Shops at the US plant in Mehun"

Note the Maxim 08 in the foreground and 3rd and 4th along the bench. A Maxim 08/15 is 2nd along the bench.

Edited 17 February by Mattr82

[Piper42nd]

Great photo.  Thanks.

[shippingsteel]

Here is another angle of the same Armourers Workshop. Does provide a somewhat better view for identifying the German Mauser, but still can't quite make out if it was fitted with sniper optics. Also cropped version shown below for better view of the rifles.

Cheers,  SS

Image Source: Department of National Defence Collection, Library and Archives Canada, PA-001161

 

[Pete_C]

19 hours ago, Andrew Upton said:

Previous thread on German use of captured Lewis guns that might be of interest:

 

 

 

Excellent thread, thanks for the heads up Andrew. Reading the comments, there appears to be compelling evidence that the Germans converted some captured guns to 7.92mm - I wasn’t aware of that - and a clear indication of the very high numbers of guns they must have captured to make this a worthwhile exercise. And possibly provides an answer to the often asked question as to how the Volkssturm came to be equipped with Lewis Guns in 1945, as in this well known Berlin photograph.

Pete 

….. good to see the photos still there after twelve years or so - so many old threads seem to have lost their images.