Muerrisch's Occasional Trivia

[Muerrisch]

Every now and then I come across some information which might interest the Forum but which seems not to fit a category. Thus an occasional post.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

19 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Every now and then I come across some information which might interest the Forum but which seems not to fit a category. Thus an occasional post.

Publish and be damned!

[Muerrisch]

SCOUTS, SNIPERS AND INT.

I was surprised to stumble across an addendum to the well-known "Organization of an infantry battalion" of April 1917 in an American version of the same month which does not depart from the British at all except to add "Patrol and Command of No man's Land". I had not seen this previously.

 

The "Intelligence Section" is detailed thus:

Intelligence officer {OC]

Scout officer

sergeant scout

corporal observer

corporal sniper

2 x l/cpl scouts

4 x snipers

12 x scouts

10 x observers

cook

batman

TOTAL 35 all ranks

This is a large and self-contained team bigger than a platoon, and the size illustrates how the growth of specialisation throughout the war weakened the rifle companies both numerically but also by recruiting those most able.

At the same time Battalion HQ had grown to 150 all ranks, while the total establishment for the unit remained very close to that of 1914.

[PhilB]

Any relevant arm insignia for these specialities?

[Muerrisch]

6 minutes ago, PhilB said:

Any relevant arm insignia for these specialities?

It is not straightforward except for scouts, who usually wore one of two versions of a fleur-de-lys, originally big brass badges on a black backing, size decreased 1907, and many switched to non-official worsted versions for practical reasons. A few units clung to the small S in small wreath issued in India, again metal or worsted.

BUT [always a but] the scout/ sniper interface seems ill-defined [many scouts were marksmen] and the scout badge usage spread. A few battalions are said to have had custom-made different designs.

Observers of infantry had no specific badge, although O in wreath was available to another arm of the service.

I do have one photo of an officer wearing the scout badge, but would welcome illustrations. 

[PhilB]

I have seen crossed rifles with S on top described as sniper qualification arm badge. Would that be post WW1? And would a man in action wish to advertise the fact that he was a sniper in case, being captured, he might be treated unsympathetically?

[Muerrisch]

2 hours ago, PhilB said:

I have seen crossed rifles with S on top described as sniper qualification arm badge. Would that be post WW1? And would a man in action wish to advertise the fact that he was a sniper in case, being captured, he might be treated unsympathetically?

Yes  I believe S .X rifles. to be no earlier than WW II. Every soldier had [in theory] at least two issue SD jackets, and, human nature being what it is, he may well have attempted to have  a "best", adorned with metal versions of his skill-at-arms, appointment, trade and proficiency badges. In the line it made sense to tone down and wear the bare minimum.

I don't have any contemporary anecdote to back this up

[Muerrisch]

TRIVIA NUMBER TWO

When service dress was introduced in several Army Orders of 1901 and 1902, there was also a description of revised full dress [the scarlet tunic for most infantry, scarlet frock India]. Several aspects jump out as surprising, and the big one was that rank badges were to be worn on both arms in both SD and full dress. The latter was revolutionary [except for a few special historical categories] and may have been sneaked in as a quid pro-quo for the intended phasing out of the scarlet Home frock. It may even have been a drafting error.

It would certainly have been expensive because many badges were elaborate, labour and material expensive. The RACD Ledger soon noted that the change was not to be implemented.

We are not surprised.

[Muerrisch]

TRIVIA NUMBER THREE

More aids to dating photos.

The "grenadier"/bomber badge of red ball and flames was authorised rather early in the war by AO 403 of 11th Oct 1915. Probably worn before Christmas..

It was not until AO 80 of 6th Feb 1917 that 1st Class Lewis Gunners and 1st Class Hotchkiss Gunners were awarded the LG wreath and HG wreath skill at arms badges.

This implies an issue and wearing period from about April 1917.

Edited 20 February by Muerrisch
addendum

[Muerrisch]

TRIVIA NUMBER FOUR

SALUTES, BOOTS AND MOUSTACHES.

 Until the Order reproduced here, salutes were made with the hand further from the person saluted.

“The left hand salute by warrant officers, non-commissioned officers and men is abolished. The salute will be given by all ranks with the right hand. When saluting to the side the head will be turned towards the person saluted. In all cases where from physical incapacity a right-hand salute is impossible, the salute will be given with the left hand. Army Order 211 of July 1918

There also existed rather comical instructions for saluting whilst on a bicycle.

 

When Service Dress was introduced by Army Order 10 of 1902, a soldier’s two pairs of boots were to be issued brown, but one pair was to be blackened for full dress. [It is very noticeable how very shiny the pre-war men presented their footwear: not quite Foot Guards bull, but clearly a matter of some importance].

 

Army Order 340 (item 3) of about 7^th October1916 amended King’s Regulations 1914 regarding shaving to delete “but not the upper lip”. The effect was to make a moustache voluntary rather than mandatory. This would come as a relief to many a young officer or NCO struggling with the problem.

 

[Muerrisch]

TRIVIA NUMBER FIVE

THE REGULAR LINE INFANTRY NCO / WO SASH

Documents dating back to 1840 describe the sash colour as 'the national crimson'.  In modern times* the colour has drifted towards scarlet, more noticeably in the worsted version than the silk version, the latter for 'staff'. RACD documents further complicate the matter by describing the colour as 'Turkey Red'. Foot Guards warrant officers clearly wear crimson silk in the 2000s.

The sash, after being worn round the waist, eventually settled on the right shoulder following a mixed period during the Crimean War.

The worsted sash was often allowed for lance-sergeants as well as sergeants. Colour sergeants of the rifle companies wore the worsted version, but if 'staff', the silk.

The silk version was about five times more expensive than the worsted, and more than a day's pay for the wearer, which may explain why so few period portraits show the former in wear; staff are usually seen wearing the herringbone worsted weave sash. Whereas the sash was worn on both the scarlet tunic and the frock, it was not for Service Dress after 1901. 

Sashes reappeared after the Great War on the revised and smarter SD.

* difficult to be specific, mainly because lack of dated examples, and black and white photography.

 

Edited 26 February by Muerrisch

[Scalyback]

On 22/02/2024 at 19:26, Muerrisch said:

There also existed rather comical instructions for saluting whilst on a bicycle.

 

Yet to find a group salute by Cyclist units. That I would pay hard cash for. Before and after for the full reward. Anything mentioned about saluting whilst wearing the folding bicycle on the back.

https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=bc4b5e46aeab13ae&sxsrf=ACQVn0_aOgE6ZOLkMKyxrX8HOJoFTHzGcw:1709057851785&q=cyclist+units+saluting&tbm=isch&source=lnms&prmd=ivnmbtz&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjax5_RkMyEAxXMTEEAHQAJB0EQ0pQJegQIDRAB&biw=1280&bih=800&dpr=1.5#imgrc=ALpanZO4l_lfZM

Something has to catch! 

[Muerrisch]

 

TRIVIA NUMBER SIX

WRIST WATCHES IN THE GREAT WAR

There appear to be a substantial number of watches displayed in period portraits and groups. This forum has discussed affordability on occasion, with the suggestion that they marked soldiers who enlisted post-Declaration and who were beter off than run-of-the-mill pre-war enlistments.

There are several ways of comparing 1914 money with the present. The lowest figure that I can find is that for the Waltham below which would cost about £279 today. Another way of looking at it is how many day's pay of a private would need to be saved. At 1/- per day basic, that is 49 days, or about 200 pints of beer.

Noting that the watch case was solid siver, perhaps a cheap watch might cost half the above. That is still more than many Forum members would spend on a watch these days.

Given that trench life was very hazardous for a wrist watch, it does indeed look like a major purchase, beyond the reasonable reach of many a Tommy.

A substantial ratio of watch-wearers in a group may well indicate a white-collar Pals battalion.

Since drafting the above, I have been startled to find how cheap writ watches were on the EFC list and have revised my opinion substantially. 

 

 

Cheap watches can be found on the Expeditionary Forces Canteen price list of 1916, available on this Forum. Whereas a tin of marmalade or 50 cigarettes cost  about1 Fr Franc*, a luminous wristlet was only 15. War-time mass production no doubt, but a wrist watch.

A substantial ratio of watch-wearers in a group may well not indicate a white-collar Pals battalion, it may suggest an aversion to marmalade and tobacco.

*The monetary units are not stated.  Fr Franc is a reasonable assumption. 

 

Edited 2 March by Muerrisch
wrong assumption

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

From the Daily Mail, December 18th 1914 Issue 5838, p3, an advert for H.Samuel, Manchester:

Edited 3 March by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[Muerrisch]

Thank you. Thirteen days pay!

And this at the beginning of the war.

Edited 3 March by Muerrisch
addendum

[PhilB]

An interesting comment on wristwatch wearing in 1914:-

Fashionable dandies with portable timepieces on their arms were belittled as “wrist-watch boys” while the tried-and-true pocket watch remained the masculine convention. “The fellow who wears a wrist-watch is frequently suspected of having lace on his lingerie, and of braiding his hair at night,” reported the Albuquerque Journal in May 1914. A New Orleans theater in 1916 assured audiences that the main character in one of its plays was not “portrayed by a wrist-watch, screen actor dude, but by a man’s man.”

A century ago, nothing epitomized masculinity more than a good war, and when the Great War itself broke out in 1914, Americans were shocked to find out what the European soldiers were wearing on the battlefield—wristwatches. “It had not been realized before that practically all military men of Europe, privates as well as officers, have given up watch chains and fobs,” reported the Salt Lake Telegram in March 1915.

[Muerrisch]

Phil, thank you.

Despite much anecdote advanced on this Forum to the contrary, the facts, referenced, do stack up in the direction of mass affordability and availability right from the declaration of war.. Looking at the situation of the Poor Bloody Infantry in mud and shot, a fragile wristwatch was not the best idea. But which of us has not splashed out on a desired possession or experience in order to feel better?  Right from the outset of war, a private soldier only had to go easy on beer, cigarettes and marmalade for a few days to accumulate about 12 shillings or the French Franc equivalent. An infantry unit was likely to have periods of several days far away from being able to spend any money, thus automatic thrift.

Regarding the ownership of pocket watches, by their nature they are hidden ........... the presence of a watch fob does not guarantee a gold Half-Hunter on the end of it.

One other aspect is the availability of watch guard devices but see below for education.

Edited 4 March by Muerrisch
addendum

[PhilB]

19 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

 

One other aspect is the availability of watch guard devices ................ something I currently know absolutely nothing about..

Here`s a start!

Just Because: The Ironic Elegance Of Trench Watches - Hodinkee

[stevenbecker]

I also read that It was common for a watch to be left with the guard at night, so they wake there reliefs and given back to the owner in the morning.

This was due to not many watches being amoung the men.

As a SNCO in an Australian Cavalry Regt (1970s-90's) we only worn a red Sach on duty as Guard commander, they were more common in the Infantry then Cavalry

I don't remember ever wearing one on Parades 

File markers in my Regt had a Lance 

As to scouts, the ALH had two types during their campanigns in Palestine

Some LH Bdes formed a scout unit for this work, while most Bdes just used unit resouces for scout work.

Since most LH Troopers were trained in this work, that was no problem

It was n't till late in the war that Scout courses were started

Edited 3 March by stevenbecker

[Muerrisch]

23 hours ago, PhilB said:

Here`s a start!

Just Because: The Ironic Elegance Of Trench Watches - Hodinkee

Many thanks, a revelation.

[PhilB]

This is very informative on WW1 watches:-

World War One Trench Watches (vintagewatchstraps.com)

[Muerrisch]

An enormous contribution, very many thanks indeed,

A mighty read for this evening.