Ottoman 5th Army HQ

[michaeldr]

The attached map-crop is copied from Kannengiesser's book and show the site of the 5th Army HQ (AHQ5) in the bottom right quarter
Does anyone have a more precise map showing the location of 5th Army HQ?

Thanks in advance, Michael

Edited 11 February by michaeldr

[charlie2]

From the German OH Vol 9 https://digi.landesbibliothek.at/viewer/image/AC01859944/561/LOG_0332/

Charlie

 

[michaeldr]

Charlie, 
thanks for the link to Sketch 14. The Turkish War 1915. Dardanelles and Gallipoli 

which confirms the general situation of the 5th Army HQ as given by Kannengiesser's sketch map.

I'm rather hoping that somewhere out there someone can pin-point the site for me on something like the map below

regards, Michael

[alantwo]

Michael

I'm not sure if the image below gives the clarity or accuracy you are seeking, but the enlarged cropped image is from a photograph I took within the Turkish Dispositions & Maps file at the National Archives and it appears to show a flag representing the Headquarters.  I don't know how accurate my guess is, but I make the bottom of the flag pole approximately Latitude 40°14'3.45"N, Longitude 26°21'52.29"E.

I hope that helps.

Kind regards

Alan

 

[michaeldr]

Alan,

Thank you for taking the time to look at this for me.
As far as I know the flag/pennant which is divided horizontally with a red half over a white half, represents a 'Group Command,' while the flag for an Army HQ is a full square (not triangular shaped) and the colours are quartered.

The following is from Kannengiesser's 'The Campaign in Gallipoli' p.196
“Equally excellent was the manner in which the quite considerable numbers of Army Headquarters had merged into the landscape. I could see nothing of this small settlement even when I was close to it. The car suddenly turned aside from the road Bighali-Jalova, across the barren plateau and halted under the shade of bushes. A few steps led into a small valley which was almost hidden by the foliage of firs and other trees. The tents were pitched under these trees. The whole position had been selected in a masterly fashion No stranger could possible imagine that at this point were collected the many threads which controlled this mighty battle and which made possible a well-considered common leadership during a period of a year and on two continents.”

The only wooded areas appear to be two blocks: 
one in squares 84w, 84x and 72b, 
and the other in 72h and 72i. 
There is a well or spring between them, making the general area an ideal location, and either of them might be considered to be close to the positions suggested in the first two sketch maps

The Mitchell Report of 1919 confirms that the allies did not find the exact location until after the 1918 armistice. 

best regards, Michael

 

Edited 18 February by michaeldr

[alantwo]

Michael

Thanks for that. The only rectangular flag I can see on this map is further to the north, near Gelibolu, (please see below, same reference as before) thus unlikely to be what you are looking for.

Best wishes

Alan

[michaeldr]

  

1 hour ago, alantwo said:

The only rectangular flag I can see on this map is further to the north, near Gelibolu,

Alan,

That flag is indicating a Corps

                 

On the left is the key to Kannengiesser's map and on the right is one from the British OH; the symbols are basically the same [see the British IX Corps HQ at that stage on the ship in the bay]

I wonder if the map which you have Alan, is not from earlier in the campaign?

Edited 13 February by michaeldr

[alantwo]

Many thanks Michael for posting the Key, the map doesn’t have one.

On 13/02/2024 at 19:07, michaeldr said:

I wonder if the map which you have Alan, is not from earlier in the campaign

I think you could be right. There does not appear to be a date on the map though all the writing is in script; I think the scale is 1:100,000. If the ‘Group Command’ is roughly in the right place, could it possibly have been ‘upgraded’, as an established location with communications etc., to an Army HQ later in the conflict?  I’ll compare the map references you gave earlier for any clues.

Kind regards

Alan

[michaeldr]

The 5^th Army HQ was indeed sited at Gelibolu at the beginning of the campaign, however once the allied landings had been established and it was clear exactly where the threats were actually situated, then it moved to Yalova and closer to the actual battlefields [exactly when the move was made is not yet clear to me]

The following is from the war diary of the 57.Alay (Regiment) as edited by Prof. Dr. Murat Karatas & Arş. Gör. Buğra Terzi [ISBN: 978-975-17-4919-2] in 2021

See page 647; para 4 translates as:-

"From 10 [10.00] tomorrow afternoon until the evening, Yalova Army Headquarters, Bigali, Kocadere and Kemâlyeri routes will be left free and other roads will be used for transportation."

(my emphasis)

Edited 17 February by michaeldr

[michaeldr]

2 hours ago, michaeldr said:

[exactly when the move was made is not yet clear to me]

from the same book edited by Prof. Dr. Murat Karatas & Arş. Gör. Buğra Terzi - see p. 287-9
para. 10 of Corps Order dated 11 May 1915, signed by the Northern Group Commander, Es'ad

confirms "transferred the army headquarters to the camp established in the south of Yalova."

(my emphasis)

Edited 17 February by michaeldr

[stevenbecker]

Sorry went through all my maps, and other written details, but no where, other then near Bigali, is mentioned, not giving the exact place

 

[michaeldr]

Steve, thanks for checking anyway.

The quote which I gave earlier from Kannengiesser's book continues with  
“The best evidence of this was that of the English flying officer who was taken prisoner towards the end of the campaign and brought to the spot.”

The English flying officer here was in fact the Australian Lt. Shirl Goodwin, the observer in a 'plane which ditched on 20th December 1915. He was rescued by a German officer and taken to LvS's HQ for questioning on the evacuation of Suvla and Anzac and to see if he had any ideas about what might be going to happen at Helles. 

Kannengiesser continues
"He (Goodwin) could scarcely believe that he stood before the so long-sought-for quarters of the Marshal. This piece of country had actually lain in his observation area. How gladly would the English have concentrated the whole of their artillery on this point!”

[michaeldr]

On 17/02/2024 at 12:23, michaeldr said:

para. 10 of Corps Order dated 11 May 1915, signed by the Northern Group Commander, Es'ad

confirms "transferred the army headquarters to the camp established in the south of Yalova."

Also given in LvS's book 'Five Years in Turkey' [see p.75/6]

"In May the headquarters were brought up from Gallipoli (Gelibolu) and placed in camp about 5 kilometres behind the Ari Burnu front and three kilometres from the village of Boghali The camp was so well fitted into the terrain among low pines that it was never discovered by the enemy's aviators. Precautions were taken to prevent roads leading to it from becoming visible."

......................................................................................................

Prigge ['The Struggle for the Dardanelles'] is vague about the camp's true position [in the vicinity of Maltepe] however he provides a further description [p.271 of the Philip Rance translation & notes]

“In a wide gully … a small city of tents rises out of the ground, protected by camouflage paintwork and bushes against the prying gaze of the aviators. In the higher part of the encampment is the tent of the marshal,  no larger than the other pointed tents, before it a larger room of canvas sheeting with maps and writing desk: the office of the Commander-in-Chief. Aligned adjacent to this are the primitive habitations of the inner staff: the Adjutant's Office, with its telephone perpetually whining and ringing, and then in a side gully the various sections of the General Staff... … 
The extent of the Army High Command is considerable. It comprises hundreds of people; the General Staff with its numerous sections, the Adjutant's Office, medical service, veterinary management, administration, paymaster, judicial service, telephony section, the infantry and cavalry of the headquarters guard. And all these men have to be fed: the foodstuffs, even the drinking water, are conveyed from afar. Cooks and kitchens are brought in. The accommodation of guests has also to be considered... ...” who Prigge then goes on to list from Enver Paşa down

Edited 18 February by michaeldr