Arnold Alfonso Burton Dobbs, MM, Cpl., 1030, 15th (The Kings) Hussars

[malcway]

As part of the continuing research by the Cambridgeshire branch of the WFA into local Old Contemptible Association members, I am now seeking more biographical information on the above man.  I have compiled a fairly comprehensive Ancestry Family Tree for the man, for which the research has been quite complicated because of the numerous changes of family name on the part of both his father and himself!   

No Service Record.

His MIC shows his entitlement to the 1914-1915 star but NOT the 1914 Star, although a friend says that Fold3 (which I don’t subscribe to) says that this is mentioned there. I have checked the 1914 Star rolls on both Ancestry and FMP using service numbers 1030 and H/1030 and drawn a blank.

1911                   Potchefstroom, Transvaal, S. Africa.       

1913                   04^th August  Court Martial @ Borden – Fold 3 (UK Naval and Military Court Martial register 1806 – 1930).  The accused was charged with the offence of "Violence to Superiors", specifically two acts of violence to a Sergeant.  Sentence 42 days detention.

1913                   28^th October Court Martial @ Longmoor  Fold 3 (UK Naval and Military Court Martialregister 1806 – 1930).  The accused was charged with "Drunkenness".  An act to the prejudice of good order and Military Discipline.  Sentence Reduced to the ranks.

1914                   11^th April.  Hants and Sussex News report. “Violent Hussar” “Arnold Dobbs “A” Squadron, 15 Hussars fined 5s and 5s costs for being drunk in the square…”

1915                   18^th  May - Disembarked France  (MIC)

1919                   December - Still serving (BWM and VM Roll)

1926                   20^th September, Married Violet Chafer at Bottesford, Glanford Brigg, Lincs.

1939                   Register - Living Old Fletton, Peterborough, with wife Violet and daughter Joan and son Dennis.

1956                   7 December.  Wrote letter as OCA Hon Sec to Peterborough Standard.

1957                   11 Oct.  Death notice in 1957 states he was “Formerly the secretary for many years of the Old Contemptibles Association.”

 

 

My questions.  Approx enlistment date?  From the newspaper report in April regarding drunken behaviour I believe he was then in “A” Squadron.  Is it likely he remained with this squadron throughout?  Any idea why he doesn’t APPEAR to have gone with the rest of his Squadron in August 1914?  (I initially thought he might have been in the glasshouse as a result of one of his CM’s, but that having read the sentences that doesn’t seem to be the case.)  His 'Awarded the "Military Medal" card has "No 62" against the 'Date of Gazette' - anybody know what that date would be?

From the History of the 15^th The Kings Hussars (Lord Carnock) I understand the Regiment sailed from Southampton to Havre on 17^th August 1914 and the 3 squadrons were each sent to different infantry divisions.

Also, I have yet to find him in the 1921 Census.  I did try a FMP search looking to see if he was in the Army of Occupation but found nothing.

As always, any help or information most gratefully received.

Edited 7 February by malcway
Added image

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, malcway said:

His 'Awarded the "Military Medal" card has "No 62" against the 'Date of Gazette' - anybody know what that date would be?

LG https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31338/supplement/6012

WEDNESDAY, 14 MAY, 1919.  War Office, 14th May, 1919. ... His Majesty the KING has been graciously pleased to approve of the award of a Military Medal for bravery in the Field to the undermentioned Warrant Officers, Non-Commissioned Officers and Men: — ... HUSSARS ... H./1030 Cpl. Dobbs, A. A. B., 15th ,(Peterborough)

M

[malcway]

16 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

LG https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31338/supplement/6012

WEDNESDAY, 14 MAY, 1919.  War Office, 14th May, 1919. ... His Majesty the KING has been graciously pleased to approve of the award of a Military Medal for bravery in the Field to the undermentioned Warrant Officers, Non-Commissioned Officers and Men: — ... HUSSARS ... H./1030 Cpl. Dobbs, A. A. B., 15th ,(Peterborough)

M

Thanks for that Matlock - doubt I would have found it without spending an awful lot of time searching the LG!  I had been hoping that the date might offer a clue as to the action he earned it in, but because it's post-war there's no way of knowing what that might be.  Thanks again.  M

[Ivor Anderson]

10 hours ago, malcway said:

I had been hoping that the date might offer a clue as to the action he earned it in, but because it's post-war there's no way of knowing what that might be.

  The 14 May 1918 LG was for actions 8 August to 8 October 1918 according to Bate & Williamson.

  He may get a mention here? https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7351442

Edited 8 February by Ivor Anderson

[Russell P Smith]

I am Arnie Dobbs grandson and can provide further detail eg his MM citation.

Russ

 

[Michelle Young]

Welcome to the forum. I’ve removed your email address from your post. Never a good idea to put information like that on a  public forum. 

[PRC]

On 07/02/2024 at 15:56, malcway said:

Approx enlistment date?

The Private Arnold Dobbs at Potchefstroom with the 15th Hussars on the 1911 Census of England & Wales gives his age as 25 so born c1886.
And the Arnold 'Alfones" Burton Dobbs, (thank you GRO website whose death was registered in the Huntingdonshire North civil registration district in Q4 1957 was aged 69- so born c1888.

The significance of that is that 15th Hussars were responsible for their own Regimental service numbers up until 1906. And although Paul Nixons Army service numbers website only covers from 1881 onwards, there were alreday up to 1767 in May of that year. It looks like they were recruiting about 100-150 per year so they would have issued regimental service number 1030 back in the 1870's - so clearly not Arnold. https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2012/04/15th-kings-hussars.html

After 1906 the system changed to one where service numbers were issued by the Corps of Hussars. The H prefix was supposed to be used to distinguish these later recruits, but as with so many such prefixes it's just as likely to be left off.  Turning to Paul Nixon again, he tells us that the Corps issued service number 7 on the 5th January 1907, and 1096 on the 13th September 1907.https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2012/12/corps-of-hussars-1907-1914.html

Narrowing that down a bit using the surviving records for those discharged before August 1914:-

H/1024 William Thomas Thomas Couch had originally enlisted in the 15th Hussars on the 21st March 1906. Reaching the Depot at Curragh Camp on the 25th March 1906 he was posted to the 19th Hussars and received regimental service number 6201. Posted to the 15th Hussars on the 4th September 1907, he received a new Corps of Hussars number, and was packed off to India. Moving with the Regiment to South Africa subsequently his conduct goes a bit off the rails, and after a long period in military detention he was discharged with ignominy in 1913.

H/1028 Arthur Frank Delmaine had actually originally enlisted in the 15th Hussars on the 18th April 1906. and received regimental service number 6217 after reaching the Depot at Curragh Camp. (I suspect he may have followed the same path as William Couch and was posted to the 19th Hussars on arrival at the Curragh.) But by July 1906 he was definately serving with the 19th Hussars and was in trouble for stealing another soldiers property for which he got 56 days in military prison, after which he was to be discharged with ignominy. However he only served 28 days and the discharge was cancelled. On the 4th September 1907 he was posted back to the 15th Hussars and so entered the new Corps numbering scheme with H/1028. Arthur left the UK for India the same day. He deserted in February 1911 while the 15th Hussars were stationed in South Africa, returned in September 1911, did his time in the detention barracks and was then dishonourably discharged.

H/1072 Samuel Peberdy had originally enlisted with the Sherwood Foresters in 1900, but was permitted to serve with the 14th Kings Hussars from the 1st September 1907. His new Corps of Hussars service number is likely to have been issued in the days following.

There may be some more mileage in looking for any Great War era records for the missing service numbers. I suspect however that Arnold Dobbs may have been part of a draft pulled from other UK based Hussars regiments to be sent out to the 15th Hussars in India. Without knowing his service number(s) with his previous unit(s) then it won't be possible to come up with a more approximate date of enlistment as far as I can see.

It's speculation but from what we can see from the 1911 Census return and the age at death is that it is looking like he may have lied about his age in order to enlist. It's a big assumption, but "25" at the start of April 1911 would point back to 18 in late 1903/ early 1904. You'll have a better idea about his true age, but going from approximate year of birth implied by his age at death then by some point in 1906 there would appear to be little point in him lieing about his age as he really would be 18.

Both Couch and Delmaine signed up for 12 year Cavalry of the Line short service enlistment, split 7 years in the colours and 5 in the reserves. If Arnold signed up under the same terms and then didn't extend his service in the colours, then potentially he could have been in the reserve period of his service before Britain joined the Great War. As a mobilised reservist in August 1914 he may not have been considered fit enough to go campaigning - which is a possible answer for one of your other questions.

Cheers,
Peter

[Russell P Smith]

Enlistment 1905, age 17. He came from a farming family from Spilsby, Lincs. He was the youngest. An older sister, Flo was sent for teacher training, an older brother John set up with a butchery business. Arnie was expected to take over the farm, he chose instead to join up signing on for 21 yrs. His parents attempted to buy him out but because of the sign on period it was impossible.

I believe his Indian service 1905-9 at Meerut. This also took in a Viceroy tour when the 15th provided the escort.

I have later photos of Arnie as a Captain in the Home Guard 1940-4. He had tried to re-enlist but this was rejected on age grounds. The unit may have been stationed at Fletton.

[Russell P Smith]

Further info. I have a copy of Arnie's MM citation. Without fishing it out it came from The King's Hussars Assoc'n about 1983. 

From memory it reads 'This NCO showed great skill and initiative in silencing an enemy machine gun which had already killed 1 officer, a number of men and had made any movement dangerous'.

See Carnock's History of the 15th Kings Hussars and you will find this action described for October 8th, 1918 but as was customary throughout the book only officers are named. The action took place at the village of Serain, north east of Le Cateau. A small cemetery outside also contains graves of Argylle and Sutherland's who had attempted prior to gain control of Serain.

 

[malcway]

10 hours ago, PRC said:

The Private Arnold Dobbs at Potchefstroom with the 15th Hussars on the 1911 Census of England & Wales gives his age as 25 so born c1886.
And the Arnold 'Alfones" Burton Dobbs, (thank you GRO website whose death was registered in the Huntingdonshire North civil registration district in Q4 1957 was aged 69- so born c1888.

The significance of that is that 15th Hussars were responsible for their own Regimental service numbers up until 1906. And although Paul Nixons Army service numbers website only covers from 1881 onwards, there were alreday up to 1767 in May of that year. It looks like they were recruiting about 100-150 per year so they would have issued regimental service number 1030 back in the 1870's - so clearly not Arnold. https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2012/04/15th-kings-hussars.html

After 1906 the system changed to one where service numbers were issued by the Corps of Hussars. The H prefix was supposed to be used to distinguish these later recruits, but as with so many such prefixes it's just as likely to be left off.  Turning to Paul Nixon again, he tells us that the Corps issued service number 7 on the 5th January 1907, and 1096 on the 13th September 1907.https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2012/12/corps-of-hussars-1907-1914.html

Narrowing that down a bit using the surviving records for those discharged before August 1914:-

H/1024 William Thomas Thomas Couch had originally enlisted in the 15th Hussars on the 21st March 1906. Reaching the Depot at Curragh Camp on the 25th March 1906 he was posted to the 19th Hussars and received regimental service number 6201. Posted to the 15th Hussars on the 4th September 1907, he received a new Corps of Hussars number, and was packed off to India. Moving with the Regiment to South Africa subsequently his conduct goes a bit off the rails, and after a long period in military detention he was discharged with ignominy in 1913.

H/1028 Arthur Frank Delmaine had actually originally enlisted in the 15th Hussars on the 18th April 1906. and received regimental service number 6217 after reaching the Depot at Curragh Camp. (I suspect he may have followed the same path as William Couch and was posted to the 19th Hussars on arrival at the Curragh.) But by July 1906 he was definately serving with the 19th Hussars and was in trouble for stealing another soldiers property for which he got 56 days in military prison, after which he was to be discharged with ignominy. However he only served 28 days and the discharge was cancelled. On the 4th September 1907 he was posted back to the 15th Hussars and so entered the new Corps numbering scheme with H/1028. Arthur left the UK for India the same day. He deserted in February 1911 while the 15th Hussars were stationed in South Africa, returned in September 1911, did his time in the detention barracks and was then dishonourably discharged.

H/1072 Samuel Peberdy had originally enlisted with the Sherwood Foresters in 1900, but was permitted to serve with the 14th Kings Hussars from the 1st September 1907. His new Corps of Hussars service number is likely to have been issued in the days following.

There may be some more mileage in looking for any Great War era records for the missing service numbers. I suspect however that Arnold Dobbs may have been part of a draft pulled from other UK based Hussars regiments to be sent out to the 15th Hussars in India. Without knowing his service number(s) with his previous unit(s) then it won't be possible to come up with a more approximate date of enlistment as far as I can see.

It's speculation but from what we can see from the 1911 Census return and the age at death is that it is looking like he may have lied about his age in order to enlist. It's a big assumption, but "25" at the start of April 1911 would point back to 18 in late 1903/ early 1904. You'll have a better idea about his true age, but going from approximate year of birth implied by his age at death then by some point in 1906 there would appear to be little point in him lieing about his age as he really would be 18.

Both Couch and Delmaine signed up for 12 year Cavalry of the Line short service enlistment, split 7 years in the colours and 5 in the reserves. If Arnold signed up under the same terms and then didn't extend his service in the colours, then potentially he could have been in the reserve period of his service before Britain joined the Great War. As a mobilised reservist in August 1914 he may not have been considered fit enough to go campaigning - which is a possible answer for one of your other questions.

Cheers,
Peter

Many thanks for this, Peter - all very interesting and some nice reasoning!  As you see below, Arnold's grandson has made an appearance and appears to be in a position to clarify the situation, so I will message him in the first instance, and will update my original post regarding the facts for the benefit of anyone interested.  So nice to have an interested living relative of this man to talk to.  Thanks again.

[malcway]

50 minutes ago, Russell P Smith said:

Further info. I have a copy of Arnie's MM citation. Without fishing it out it came from The King's Hussars Assoc'n about 1983. 

From memory it reads 'This NCO showed great skill and initiative in silencing an enemy machine gun which had already killed 1 officer, a number of men and had made any movement dangerous'.

See Carnock's History of the 15th Kings Hussars and you will find this action described for October 8th, 1918 but as was customary throughout the book only officers are named. The action took place at the village of Serain, north east of Le Cateau. A small cemetery outside also contains graves of Argylle and Sutherland's who had attempted prior to gain control of Serain.

 

Excellent! Much appreciated, Russ - have PM'd you.