Bangor Eisteddfod 1915 - the 'Lost' Choir, 17th battalion RWF

[naomipalmer]

I’m a historian from Swansea University and for a few months have been researching the story of the ‘Lost Choir’ of the 1915 Eisteddfod in Bangor where 2 battalions of the RWF (16^th and 17^th) competed in the male voice choir competition.

In the 1917 Eisteddfod in Birkenhead, one the choirs (the 17^th battalion) was invited back and it was announced that their conductor, Lance Corporal Samuel Evans (of Rhosllanerchrugog/Penycae) was in attendance and was the only surviving member of the winning choir. This story has been repeated for over a century but it isn’t true, the 16^th battalion were the winners (their conductor was Private Tom Tucker of Skewen) and there were several members of the 17^th battalion (and 16^th) choir(s) that were still alive by the time of the Eisteddfod in Birkenhead in 1917.

I have discovered several names and believe that these men were from the 17^th battalion (2^nd North Wales), a number would have been in ‘B’ company. Newspaper articles of the time (attached articles from Y Brython, 27 September 1917, and Y Llan, 28 September 1917) contain the names of some of the choir members still alive in 1917, most of whom were from/living in and around the Wrexham area, but with some having fairly common names and currently without regimental numbers it's proving difficult to trace these men.

I have details for two (W.O. Williams and Emrys Williams) but the others are proving a bit difficult. The purpose of all this is that there is a possibility, if more details can be found/confirmed, the stories of some of these men can be shared at the Eisteddfod in 2025 which is being held in Wrexham. I'm hopeful that some readers will know more about the story of the choir/choirs or are possibly descendants of the members. Although I have been focusing on the choir of the 17th battalion, any information about members of the 16th battalion choir would also be extremely valuable.

(Also attached is a possible image (although confirmation is needed) of the 17th battalion choir - this image is used in a Welsh-language documentary, Lleisiau'r Rhyfel Mawr (Voices of the Great War) (Cwmni Da, 2008) when the story of the choir is presented).

[Dragon]

You have probably considered this, but when I was trying to find out more about my family members from the area I found the MinerAncestry board users were very keen to help and there is also Hanes Coedpoeth & Minera on Facebook. My family lived in an area from Minera south to Rhos and Penycae. I know that at least one was in the Rhos choir but probably just after the 'Lost Choir'. I have a line of contact to his descendants. Unfortunately as my name is Roberts there are a lot of us.

Small world. When we were passing through Llandovery / Llanymddyfri last autumn my husband climbed up the mound above Llywelyn ap Gruffydd Fychan and got talking to a local historian who knew lots about the Rhosllanerchrugog choir. I know his name. 

Gwyn

Edited 8 February by Dragon

[geraint]

Gwyn is good. Look out also for members Hywyn and Clive Hughes who have profound knowledge in this area.. I've a strong interest in the replies, but I cant help apart for being happy to translate anything.

Edited 6 February by geraint

[naomipalmer]

Diolch yn fawr both! Really appreciate the responses. Unfortunately military records don't note if someone was in their battalion choir...

Thank you very much for the suggestion of MinerAncestry, Gwyn! This isn't one I'd considered but will definitely look into.  

I've extensively searched the newspaper archives of the National Library and the military records available on Find My Past and Ancestry, as well as on forums and in books and journals, but out of interest, are there other obvious places I should be looking? This is a fairly new area of research for me, my area of research for the past 7 years or so has been the First World War documentaries.

There's the possibility that members of the Rhosllanerchrugog choir were in one of the choirs. The conductor of the 17th battalion choir, Private (later Lance Corporal) Samuel Evans was from Rhosllanerchrugog, but by 1917 was noted as living in Penycae, and from what I can find, was the organist at Tai Nant Chapel. 

Edited 6 February by naomipalmer

[FROGSMILE]

Calling @Hywyn and @clive_hughes .

[naomipalmer]

Here is a confirmed photo of the winning choir - 16th battalion. It's from the book Rhywle yn Ffrainc: Detholiad o Ddyddiadur Milwr yn y Rhyfel Mawr(Gwasg Carreg Gwalch, 2019) by Tom Price.

[geraint]

Gwych!

Excellent photo! In eleven months time all those lads (presuming they survived till then) would have been part of the vanguard attack on Mametz Wood. throughout the night of 9th July 1916 they waited till first light "singing hymns to keep up their spirits" before  going over the top and attacking the Germans in the Woods. The cream of Welsh manhood were involved of which 4,000 never came home. I know the same is replicated all over the Somme affecting young men from all over Europe and the Dominions; but for me that photo of that choir represents my family history during the Great War. "Arglwydd dyma fi; Ar dy alwad Di"

[naomipalmer]

3 hours ago, geraint said:

Gwych!

Excellent photo! In eleven months time all those lads (presuming they survived till then) would have been part of the vanguard attack on Mametz Wood. throughout the night of 9th July 1916 they waited till first light "singing hymns to keep up their spirits" before  going over the top and attacking the Germans in the Woods. The cream of Welsh manhood were involved of which 4,000 never came home. I know the same is replicated all over the Somme affecting young men from all over Europe and the Dominions; but for me that photo of that choir represents my family history during the Great War. "Arglwydd dyma fi; Ar dy alwad Di"

It does feel like a representation of 'Welshness' in a photo. Part of the research is also finding out what happened to the battalions after they competed in the Eisteddfod in 1915. I've come across newspaper articles naming at least two members of the 16th battalion choir who were still alive in 1917.

[Dragon]

Would you like me to send an email to the family member who has more direct contact than I with the family of the former member(s) of the Rhos choir? I only know what my dad told me. She would know much more.

As a side, I have always wondered what the families made of official letters saying that their son, husband or other had been injured or killed. I have the letters, but they are in English and my father's Nain and Taid did not speak or read any English. Who would have helped them? The minister? a teacher?

Edited 8 February by Dragon

[naomipalmer]

This would be really helpful, thank you very much Gwyn! Really appreciate everyone's willingness to help. As someone pointed out to me this week, it could be that if they were members of their battalion choir, they could well have been members of their church, chapel or local choir before enlisting.

In response to letters in English, I've read a bit about censorship of soldier's letters in the army (interesting chapter by Ifor ap Glyn, 'Dear Mother, I am very sorry I cannot write to you in Welsh': Censorship and the Welsh Language in the First World War) and it seems that parents/families would ask anyone they knew who could read English, that could be, like you say, a minister, teacher, shopkeepers/local business owners. I'm sure others know more and I'd be interested to learn more about this.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Hi Naomi,
You could try searching some of the names on the North Wales Absent Voters' Lists.
The donkey work has been done for you, they're listed by parliamentary divsions (Wrexham & Flintshire will be of interest to you, but Anglesey, Caernarfonshire & Denbighshire are also there)., by parish or by A to Z. They're in Excel so you could filter for regiment, then battalions. (And in case you're doing South Wales men - Carmarthen & Llanelli lists are there too.)

https://dyfedjames99.wixsite.com/hanes-star/absent-voters-lists-1919-21

Also I'll tag @Hywyn and @clive_hughes who may know the answers off the top of ther heads.

Edited 8 February by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[naomipalmer]

What an amazing resource! Thank you for sharing this!

[PRC]

On 06/02/2024 at 17:55, naomipalmer said:

I've extensively searched the newspaper archives of the National Library and the military records available on Find My Past and Ancestry, as well as on forums and in books and journals, but out of interest, are there other obvious places I should be looking? This is a fairly new area of research for me, my area of research for the past 7 years or so has been the First World War documentaries.

Hi @naomipalmer and a belated welcome to the forum.

You hopefully have already covered this off, and if not I hope someone up comes up with a quicker and more complete method

The original men of the 16th and 17th Battalions deployed to France in December 1915 according to our parent site, the Long, Long Trail. And looking at the Medal Index Cards (MiC) for a few of the early deaths for each Battalion, (March-May 1916), the relevant date looks like the 2nd December 1915 for the 16th and 4th & 5th December 1915 for the 17th. This means that they would have qualified for the 1914/15 Star - any potentially candidate you find that qualified for only the Victory Medal and British War Medal but no 1914/15 Star as well did not land in a Theatre of War until the 1st January 1916 at the very earliest and so can probably be parked \ discounted as having been with the 17th Battalion in 1915 while it was still in the UK.

If the clerks at the relevant records office followed the standing instructions then the Regiments Victory Medal and British War Medal Roll for the Royal Welsh Fusiliers, (available on Ancestry as images, FindMyPast as limited transcripts and without the facility to scroll), should show all the units served with overseas, so again any candidate not shown with either Battalion can probably be parked.

In theory it should be possible to create a partial Other Ranks Muster Roll for the 17th Battalion at the date of landing. It won't be complete - some men will have gone on to serve with other units, some of which like the Labour Corps definately had records offices that did not follow the practice of showing all units served with when completing the medal roll. But if the choir members died while serving with their initial battalion then they should appear on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, (CWGC), database.

While it's possible (with difficulty) to interogate that to find out which individuals they have for a specific battalion on the CWGCs' own website, much the easiest way to perform the task is to use Geoffs' Search engine http://www.hut-six.co.uk/cgi-bin/searchWW1.php

Using that for the period "01/12/1915-31/12/1916" for the 16th Battalion brings up 187 deaths. A few are shown with Company details. For the same period the 17th Battalion suffered 154 fatalities. Again there are a few shown with Company details. Some pf those fatalities are Officers.

Word of warning the CWGC webpage for each individual fatality may show additional information - usually family. This information was relevant to the mid-twenties  when the CWGC's predecessor, the Imperial War Graves Commission was looking to put in place one of their new style headstones on existing graves or add names to the likes of the Thiepval Memorial then under construction for those where there was no known grave. The Imperial War Graves commission was therefore in correspondence with next of kin to ensure the memorial honoured their wishes - particularly how names were spelt. While in many cases the address shown on the CWGC entry will reflect the situation pre-war, or at least put them in the same locale, that can't be taken for granted without looking at other information in the civil records.

As well as using the CWGC database to identify individuals that same information can also be analysed for clusters of deaths. Those can then be used to find the names in the relevant casualty lists in local papers. Those same lists are also likely to include the names and service numbers of the wounded and the missing - some of whom would have been taken prisoner.  While by 1916 casualties were no longer being listed by Battalion, what increasingly they included as the year went on was a place name relating to the next of kin who was informed of the casualty. One provisio is that the later you look the more likely a casualty was part of a replacement draft received after the initial deployment.

A look at the CWGC database for example shows 22 fatalities for the 17th Battalion on the 9th July 1916, (with more to follow on the 10th, 11th and 12th).

Of the first ten names on CWGC for that day, combining the information from CWGC, Soldiers Died in the Great War, (an HMSO publication from the 1920's) just for those who went out in 1915 , and the MiC shows:-

27924 Private Stanley Maurice Catmur, aged 29. Son of Fredrick John Allen Catmur and Mary Catmur. No known grave, remembered Thiepval Memorial. MiC as Catmar - Victory Medal and British War Medal only.

25457 Private Patrick Cleary, aged 38. Husband of Johanna Roche (formerly Cleary), of Kingsford, Barntown, Wexford. No known grave, remembered Thiepval Memorial. Born County Wexford, resident Gelli Phondda, Glamorganshire and enlisted Pentre, Glamorganshire. MiC shows landed France 5th December 1915.

35349 Private David Davies, aged 23. Brother of William Davies, of 2, Mount Pleasant, Cefn Mawr, Wrexham, Denbighshire. No known grave, remembered Thiepval Memorial. MiC - Victory Medal and British War Medal only.

25783 Private Owen Edwards, aged 20.  Son of Owen and Mary Ann Edwards, of Llain Delyn, Bryngwran, Valley, Anglesey. No known grave, remembered Thiepval Memorial. Born and resident Brynguran, Anglesey, enlisted Holyhead. MiC shows landed France 5th December 1915.

25092 Private William Finnigan, aged 18. Son of Ellen Finnigan, of 7, Farndon St., Wrexham, Denbighshire, and the late Richard Finnigan. Born and enlisted Wrexham – no place of residence shown. No known grave, remembered Thiepval Memorial. MiC shows landed France 5th December 1915. Remarks shows KiA 9th to 12th July 1916.

27772 Private Walter James Eael Furness, aged 17. Son of Ernest Robert and Mary Ann Furness, of 17, Eva Place, Haggerston, London. No known grave, remembered Thiepval Memorial. MiC - Victory Medal and British War Medal only.

37278 Private John Henry Hughes, aged 26. Son of John and Jane Hughes, of "Talafon", Llanystumdwy, Criccieth, Carnarvonshire. No known grave, remembered Thiepval Memorial. MiC - Victory Medal and British War Medal only.

25157 Private Rees Hughes, aged 32. Son of Mary Hughes, of Rhiwlas, Bangor, and the late Owen Hughes. Born Llanddeiniolen, Carnarvonshire and enlisted Bangor, Carnarvonshire – no place of residence shown. No known grave, remembered Thiepval Memorial. MiC shows landed France 5th December 1915.

26343 Private Henry Jones. No known grave, remembered Thiepval Memorial. Born Resolven, Glamorganshire and enlisted Neath, Glamorganshire – no place of residence shown. MiC shows landed France 5th December 1915. Remarks shows KiA 9th to 12th July 1916.

23269 Private John Wynne Jones, aged 22. Son of the late Evan Jones. No known grave, remembered Thiepval Memorial. Born Llanganhafal, Denbighshire and enlisted Ruthin, Denbighshire – no place of residence shown. MiC shows landed France 5th December 1915.

The Official Casualty List that appeared in the edition of The Times dated 4th September 1916 on page 4 records Catmur, (as Catmar), Davies, Edwards, Finnigan, Furness, J.H Hughes and R. Hughes as Missing, while H.Jones is shown as Killed in Action. The same list or extracts from it will appear in regional papers on that date or shortly afterwards.

Wounded soldiers of the Royal Welsh Fusiliers, (could be a mix of Battalions serving in France & Flanders) in the same list :-

And under Wounded - Shock Shell.

All three images courtesy The Times Digital Archive.

Going back to the names in your first post, and bearing in mind those landing dates:-
There is a MiC for a Lance Corporal 25494 James E. Hughes, Royal Welsh Fusiliers, who first landed in France on the 4th December 1915. He was Discharged on the 24th May 1919. I don’t subscribe to FindMyPast or Ancestry, but certainly FindMyPast have indexed the Medal Roll as James Edward Hughes. No obvious surviving service records. In a Casualty List that was printed in the edition of the Liverpool Daily Echo dated 29th August 1916 25494 J.E. Hughes, Royal Welsh Fusiliers, next of kin at Holyhead, puts in an appearance – unfortunately I can only see a thumbnail snapshot. But checking out the Official Casualty List that appeared in The Times on the same day he came under the heading Wounded Shock-Shell.

There is no MiC for anyone named Bob Parry serving with any Regiment or Corps of the British Army. However among the many Robert Parry’s who served overseas with the Royal Welsh Fusiliers there was a Private 25500 Robert T. Parry, who landed in France on the 4th December 1915. He was honourably discharged on the 4th September 1916, receiving the Silver War Badge. The vast majority of the badges went to men who were no longer physically fit for war service as a result of wounds, sickness or accidental injuries. Medal Rolls indexed on FindMyPast and Ancestry as a Robert Thomas Parry. However no spotting any obvious service records indexed on FindMyPast, (they categorise service \ burnt records and pension \ unburnt records the same).  Ancestry have nothing obvious under service, and with the new indexing system for pension records it’s impossible to tell for a non-paying subscriber like me. Similarly the transcriptions of the pension ledger cards on Ancestry don’t give enough details other than to say they have some for a Robert Thomas Parry living in Wales. The actual images are on Ancestrys’ US sister site, Fold 3. The Silver War Badge Roll on Ancestry may give some guidance as to the reason for his discharge and may also confirm his age at discharge.
May be a co-incidence but there are only six service numbers separating James Edward Hughes and Robert Thomas Parry.

As far as the MiC record is concerned the most likely match for the conductor, Lance Corporal Samuel Evans is 25808 who landed in France on the 4th December 1915. He was honourably discharged on the 12th July 1917 and also received the Silver War Badge. No obvious Service Records indexed on FindMyPast, and no Service Records on Ancestry – Pension Records and Pension Ledger Cards needs checking, along with the Silver War Badge Roll. And a casualty list that appeared in the edition of the Liverpool Daily Post dated 19th August 1916 has a 25808 Lance Corporal S. Evans, Royal Welsh Fusiliers listed under Wounded Shock Shell. Location for next of kin has been transcribed as “Penycae Ruaboo”, (Western Mail 19th August 1916 has been transcribed as Penvcae, Buabon.), so probably worth checking the original via the British Newspaper Archive or the appropriate subscription level to FindMyPast or Ancestry.

Hope that is not a whole shoal of red herrings.

Cheers,
Peter

[naomipalmer]

15 hours ago, PRC said:

Hi @naomipalmer and a belated welcome to the forum.

You hopefully have already covered this off, and if not I hope someone up comes up with a quicker and more complete method

The original men of the 16th and 17th Battalions deployed to France in December 1915 according to our parent site, the Long, Long Trail. And looking at the Medal Index Cards (MiC) for a few of the early deaths for each Battalion, (March-May 1916), the relevant date looks like the 2nd December 1915 for the 16th and 4th & 5th December 1915 for the 17th. This means that they would have qualified for the 1914/15 Star - any potentially candidate you find that qualified for only the Victory Medal and British War Medal but no 1914/15 Star as well did not land in a Theatre of War until the 1st January 1916 at the very earliest and so can probably be parked \ discounted as having been with the 17th Battalion in 1915 while it was still in the UK.

If the clerks at the relevant records office followed the standing instructions then the Regiments Victory Medal and British War Medal Roll for the Royal Welsh Fusiliers, (available on Ancestry as images, FindMyPast as limited transcripts and without the facility to scroll), should show all the units served with overseas, so again any candidate not shown with either Battalion can probably be parked.

In theory it should be possible to create a partial Other Ranks Muster Roll for the 17th Battalion at the date of landing. It won't be complete - some men will have gone on to serve with other units, some of which like the Labour Corps definately had records offices that did not follow the practice of showing all units served with when completing the medal roll. But if the choir members died while serving with their initial battalion then they should appear on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, (CWGC), database.

While it's possible (with difficulty) to interogate that to find out which individuals they have for a specific battalion on the CWGCs' own website, much the easiest way to perform the task is to use Geoffs' Search engine http://www.hut-six.co.uk/cgi-bin/searchWW1.php

Using that for the period "01/12/1915-31/12/1916" for the 16th Battalion brings up 187 deaths. A few are shown with Company details. For the same period the 17th Battalion suffered 154 fatalities. Again there are a few shown with Company details. Some pf those fatalities are Officers.

Word of warning the CWGC webpage for each individual fatality may show additional information - usually family. This information was relevant to the mid-twenties  when the CWGC's predecessor, the Imperial War Graves Commission was looking to put in place one of their new style headstones on existing graves or add names to the likes of the Thiepval Memorial then under construction for those where there was no known grave. The Imperial War Graves commission was therefore in correspondence with next of kin to ensure the memorial honoured their wishes - particularly how names were spelt. While in many cases the address shown on the CWGC entry will reflect the situation pre-war, or at least put them in the same locale, that can't be taken for granted without looking at other information in the civil records.

As well as using the CWGC database to identify individuals that same information can also be analysed for clusters of deaths. Those can then be used to find the names in the relevant casualty lists in local papers. Those same lists are also likely to include the names and service numbers of the wounded and the missing - some of whom would have been taken prisoner.  While by 1916 casualties were no longer being listed by Battalion, what increasingly they included as the year went on was a place name relating to the next of kin who was informed of the casualty. One provisio is that the later you look the more likely a casualty was part of a replacement draft received after the initial deployment.

A look at the CWGC database for example shows 22 fatalities for the 17th Battalion on the 9th July 1916, (with more to follow on the 10th, 11th and 12th).

Of the first ten names on CWGC for that day, combining the information from CWGC, Soldiers Died in the Great War, (an HMSO publication from the 1920's) just for those who went out in 1915 , and the MiC shows:-

27924 Private Stanley Maurice Catmur, aged 29. Son of Fredrick John Allen Catmur and Mary Catmur. No known grave, remembered Thiepval Memorial. MiC as Catmar - Victory Medal and British War Medal only.

25457 Private Patrick Cleary, aged 38. Husband of Johanna Roche (formerly Cleary), of Kingsford, Barntown, Wexford. No known grave, remembered Thiepval Memorial. Born County Wexford, resident Gelli Phondda, Glamorganshire and enlisted Pentre, Glamorganshire. MiC shows landed France 5th December 1915.

35349 Private David Davies, aged 23. Brother of William Davies, of 2, Mount Pleasant, Cefn Mawr, Wrexham, Denbighshire. No known grave, remembered Thiepval Memorial. MiC - Victory Medal and British War Medal only.

25783 Private Owen Edwards, aged 20.  Son of Owen and Mary Ann Edwards, of Llain Delyn, Bryngwran, Valley, Anglesey. No known grave, remembered Thiepval Memorial. Born and resident Brynguran, Anglesey, enlisted Holyhead. MiC shows landed France 5th December 1915.

25092 Private William Finnigan, aged 18. Son of Ellen Finnigan, of 7, Farndon St., Wrexham, Denbighshire, and the late Richard Finnigan. Born and enlisted Wrexham – no place of residence shown. No known grave, remembered Thiepval Memorial. MiC shows landed France 5th December 1915. Remarks shows KiA 9th to 12th July 1916.

27772 Private Walter James Eael Furness, aged 17. Son of Ernest Robert and Mary Ann Furness, of 17, Eva Place, Haggerston, London. No known grave, remembered Thiepval Memorial. MiC - Victory Medal and British War Medal only.

37278 Private John Henry Hughes, aged 26. Son of John and Jane Hughes, of "Talafon", Llanystumdwy, Criccieth, Carnarvonshire. No known grave, remembered Thiepval Memorial. MiC - Victory Medal and British War Medal only.

25157 Private Rees Hughes, aged 32. Son of Mary Hughes, of Rhiwlas, Bangor, and the late Owen Hughes. Born Llanddeiniolen, Carnarvonshire and enlisted Bangor, Carnarvonshire – no place of residence shown. No known grave, remembered Thiepval Memorial. MiC shows landed France 5th December 1915.

26343 Private Henry Jones. No known grave, remembered Thiepval Memorial. Born Resolven, Glamorganshire and enlisted Neath, Glamorganshire – no place of residence shown. MiC shows landed France 5th December 1915. Remarks shows KiA 9th to 12th July 1916.

23269 Private John Wynne Jones, aged 22. Son of the late Evan Jones. No known grave, remembered Thiepval Memorial. Born Llanganhafal, Denbighshire and enlisted Ruthin, Denbighshire – no place of residence shown. MiC shows landed France 5th December 1915.

The Official Casualty List that appeared in the edition of The Times dated 4th September 1916 on page 4 records Catmur, (as Catmar), Davies, Edwards, Finnigan, Furness, J.H Hughes and R. Hughes as Missing, while H.Jones is shown as Killed in Action. The same list or extracts from it will appear in regional papers on that date or shortly afterwards.

Wounded soldiers of the Royal Welsh Fusiliers, (could be a mix of Battalions serving in France & Flanders) in the same list :-

And under Wounded - Shock Shell.

All three images courtesy The Times Digital Archive.

Going back to the names in your first post, and bearing in mind those landing dates:-
There is a MiC for a Lance Corporal 25494 James E. Hughes, Royal Welsh Fusiliers, who first landed in France on the 4th December 1915. He was Discharged on the 24th May 1919. I don’t subscribe to FindMyPast or Ancestry, but certainly FindMyPast have indexed the Medal Roll as James Edward Hughes. No obvious surviving service records. In a Casualty List that was printed in the edition of the Liverpool Daily Echo dated 29th August 1916 25494 J.E. Hughes, Royal Welsh Fusiliers, next of kin at Holyhead, puts in an appearance – unfortunately I can only see a thumbnail snapshot. But checking out the Official Casualty List that appeared in The Times on the same day he came under the heading Wounded Shock-Shell.

There is no MiC for anyone named Bob Parry serving with any Regiment or Corps of the British Army. However among the many Robert Parry’s who served overseas with the Royal Welsh Fusiliers there was a Private 25500 Robert T. Parry, who landed in France on the 4th December 1915. He was honourably discharged on the 4th September 1916, receiving the Silver War Badge. The vast majority of the badges went to men who were no longer physically fit for war service as a result of wounds, sickness or accidental injuries. Medal Rolls indexed on FindMyPast and Ancestry as a Robert Thomas Parry. However no spotting any obvious service records indexed on FindMyPast, (they categorise service \ burnt records and pension \ unburnt records the same).  Ancestry have nothing obvious under service, and with the new indexing system for pension records it’s impossible to tell for a non-paying subscriber like me. Similarly the transcriptions of the pension ledger cards on Ancestry don’t give enough details other than to say they have some for a Robert Thomas Parry living in Wales. The actual images are on Ancestrys’ US sister site, Fold 3. The Silver War Badge Roll on Ancestry may give some guidance as to the reason for his discharge and may also confirm his age at discharge.
May be a co-incidence but there are only six service numbers separating James Edward Hughes and Robert Thomas Parry.

As far as the MiC record is concerned the most likely match for the conductor, Lance Corporal Samuel Evans is 25808 who landed in France on the 4th December 1915. He was honourably discharged on the 12th July 1917 and also received the Silver War Badge. No obvious Service Records indexed on FindMyPast, and no Service Records on Ancestry – Pension Records and Pension Ledger Cards needs checking, along with the Silver War Badge Roll. And a casualty list that appeared in the edition of the Liverpool Daily Post dated 19th August 1916 has a 25808 Lance Corporal S. Evans, Royal Welsh Fusiliers listed under Wounded Shock Shell. Location for next of kin has been transcribed as “Penycae Ruaboo”, (Western Mail 19th August 1916 has been transcribed as Penvcae, Buabon.), so probably worth checking the original via the British Newspaper Archive or the appropriate subscription level to FindMyPast or Ancestry.

Hope that is not a whole shoal of red herrings.

Cheers,
Peter

Thank you very much Peter! Some really useful information here and things I haven't come across. Thank you also for taking the time to look at some of records available. 

The 17th battalion did go to France in December 1915 so this would link up. The letter in the newspaper which lists the names is dated September 1917.

I definitely think that the Samuel Evans you've found could be the Samuel Evans - it matches with some of the information I already have, including that by the time of the Eisteddfod in September 1917, he had been injured and I believe discharged from the army and was also living in Penycae.

James Ed. Hughes is listed as living in Bagillt but that's not to say his next of kin didn't live in Holyhead. He's one of the names I've struggled with a bit, but there's also the possibility that he enlisted as James Hughes and I've also tried variations of Edward, Edwin, Edgar, Edmund for 'Ed.'.

 

[PRC]

39 minutes ago, naomipalmer said:

James Ed. Hughes is listed as living in Bagillt but that's not to say his next of kin didn't live in Holyhead.

You don't have to look at many army records to realise that a lot of the record office clerks hadn't got a clue where places were and when it came to things like the casualty lists \ entries in the like of Soldiers Died in the Great War they just plumped for what they knew. I have to have some sympathy with them - I hadn't got a clue where Bagillt was and it's proximity or otherwise to Holyhead. A quick check of the map tells me it's quite close to a Holywell - coincidence.  And while it probably doesn't apply in this case, a rural county like Norfolk probably isn't too disimilar in that the main postal town can be over 30 miles away. I frequently see examples of addresses for next of kin in surviving service records where the postal town is included in the address and subsequently becomes the place given in casualty lists.

On a different note - no pun intended - home service units from Wales were stationed in Norfolk at various times during the war. Going from the local press reporting many seem to have had choirs and were a regular feature of local charity concerts - particularly causes like local Red Cross Hospitals and providing parcels to prisoners of war. A staple of such concerts would be solo's and duets from choir members, and reviews would often name these. When the units moved on  "leaving" concerts to say thank you to the community seem to have been a regular occurrence.

As I'm sure your aware both 16th and 17th Battalions were originally part of the 43rd Division, which was subsequently renamed the 38th (Welsh Division) in April 1915. Both Battalions were part of the 113th Brigade by April 1915, but in July 1915 the 17th Battalion moved to the 115th Brigade. Unfortunately our parent site is quiet on where the Division assembled and subsequently trained.http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/38th-welsh-division/

Wikipedia gives this "The division spent most of 1915 dispersed, with the majority located across North Wales with units training at Pwllheli, Colwyn Bay, Llandudno and Rhyl; some units were based in the south at Abergavenny. At these locations, the men undertook basic training, were drilled, and trained for open warfare. On 19 August, the division moved to Winchester, England, where it assembled for the first time as a coherent single unit. Final training took place and limited instruction was given on tactics for trench warfare, on the assumption that practical experience would be easier to gain in France. Following training, it took until November for the division to be fully equipped with rifles. To be declared fit for overseas service, the division's soldiers had to fire 24 rounds on a rifle range. On 29 November, the division was inspected for the last time before its deployment; Queen Mary and Princess Mary reviewed the troops at Crawley Down." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/38th_(Welsh)_Infantry_Division

A check of the British Newspaper Archive using the query winchester welsh choir brought up a number of newspaper items for late 1915, many of them it seems quoting specific battalions of the Royal Welsh Fusiliers and usually mentioning the conductor and \ or soloists. As usual there was a fair amount of garbarge translation done by the software used so it would probably pay to work through the results and get creative with the search criteria once you get a feel for the kind of recurring errors made

Here's a few sample screenshots - you may be particularly interested in the second one for September 1915 and the one for October 1915.

Sample for August 1915.

 

Samples for September 1915.

Sample from October 1915.

 All images courtesy The British Newspaper Archive.

There may well have been other concerts in the Wiltshire \ Hampshire area. I don't know if forum member @Moonraker can help with where the 17th Battalion Royal Welsh Fusiliers might have been billeted during their stay in the area.

Cheers,
Peter

[Dragon]

On 08/02/2024 at 12:07, naomipalmer said:

This would be really helpful, thank you very much Gwyn! Really appreciate everyone's willingness to help. As someone pointed out to me this week, it could be that if they were members of their battalion choir, they could well have been members of their church, chapel or local choir before enlisting.

In response to letters in English, I've read a bit about censorship of soldier's letters in the army (interesting chapter by Ifor ap Glyn, 'Dear Mother, I am very sorry I cannot write to you in Welsh': Censorship and the Welsh Language in the First World War) and it seems that parents/families would ask anyone they knew who could read English, that could be, like you say, a minister, teacher, shopkeepers/local business owners. I'm sure others know more and I'd be interested to learn more about this.

I will try and email her this weekend. I wish you luck in considering the local chapels route. I have photos from my parents of their chapel choir outings, and indeed some from the photo album of a Methodist minister of choir outings in the very early 20c, but not a soul is labelled. I've tried to find stuff out, and it will take me to, say, Capel Salem.... but which Salem chapel?! I suspect there is an entire patchwork of bits and pieces and photos and clippings buried in descendants' memories and lofts and even handwritten notes within Bibles all over Wales. 

I don't know whether the Chapels project Addoldai Cymru would be able to point you at possible sources of chapel records. https://welshchapels.wales/ 

[naomipalmer]

On 09/02/2024 at 00:01, PRC said:

The original men of the 16th and 17th Battalions deployed to France in December 1915 according to our parent site, the Long, Long Trail. And looking at the Medal Index Cards (MiC) for a few of the early deaths for each Battalion, (March-May 1916), the relevant date looks like the 2nd December 1915 for the 16th and 4th & 5th December 1915 for the 17th.

Going by this information which does fit in with the dates I had found, I think you might have found the right James Ed. Hughes and Samuel Evans @PRC! Thank you VERY much! I'm trying to find out some more about Robert T Parry. 

I'm wondering if anyone could help me, the attached article names a Private Emrys Williams. The letter translates: 'Whilst reading Y Llan on 14th September, I noticed that attention was given in the Birkenhead Eisteddfod this year to the two military choirs of the 16th and 17th RWF who competed in the Bangor Eisteddfod two years ago. I noticed that an error had been made. It was not the 17th Batt. choir that won, but the 16th Batt., and I'm pleased to let readers of Y Llan know, that if the conductor of the winning choir is Lance-Corporal Samuel Evans, then there is another, which is Private Emrys Williams, son of Mr. Owen Llechid Williams, one of the sons of Llanllechid Church , who has spent almost two years in France." - signed H.R.H. 

I've found Service Records for a Private Emrys Williams, next of kin named as Owen Williams. There's also a record for Emrys Williams in the Absent Voters List. What I'm unsure about is whether he was in the 16th or 17th battalion RWF. Reg. no: 19185 (also used is 151219). The article suggests 17th but I think he was in the 16th, either way he competed in the Bangor Eisteddfod and survived the war!

Edited 15 February by naomipalmer