Donal Flynn Posted 3 February Share Posted 3 February Help needed identifying the uniform, the photo is of James Lawler, believed photographed in 1922, he served in World War 1, possibly at Gallipoli. There seems to be a feather/cockade on the pith helmet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 3 February Admin Share Posted 3 February Welcome to the forum. Unless the dog is obscuring another ribbon, I can only see the ribbons of the War and Victory medals. If he was serving in 1922, his papers probably survive, and can be requested on the gov.uk website. Be prepared for a long wait ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 3 February Admin Share Posted 3 February Do you have any family information which might help the experts on here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 3 February Share Posted 3 February He is likely to be a Fusilier with the cockade in the pagri. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mancpal Posted 3 February Share Posted 3 February I was about to say it isn’t the Lancashire Fusiliers as their cockade is red above white. However having done a brief check it appears at some stage they wore a yellow one. Although on this photograph it appears dark this could be the photographic process of the time which often make pale colours appear dark therefore I suppose the LF can’t be ruled out. I await to be shot down as uniforms and insignia are far from my strong point. Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mancpal Posted 3 February Share Posted 3 February (edited) There is a James Lawler (Lawlor on MIC with Lawler written above. He qualified for the BWM and VM which would fit with the photograph and he served on after the war which again would fit. The absence of a star medal (either version) would rule out Gallipoli. This Lawler was with the Royal Welch Fusiliers (who at one point wore a single pale coloured ‘cockade’) with service numbers 6728, 200181 and 4178015. The latter being a post war service number. This is one for Frogsmile I believe. Simon Edited 3 February by mancpal Missed a chunk out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 3 February Share Posted 3 February (edited) A ‘cockade’ is a military rosette formed from ribbon and nothing to do with the headdress adornment seen here. Fusilier and some other regiments, including some Foot Guards, Highlanders, Cameronian’s, and even certain cavalry regiments wore/wear ‘plumes’. Fusiliers and Guards other ranks (less WOs) wore plumes made from horse hair that had been coloured and bound in the form of a narrow fan (wider at top and tapered to bottom). Conversely the plume of officers and WO was in the form of a cut feather hackle in the same colour arrangement as their men. The position and colour of the Fusiliers plume was complex, in that it differed according to the longevity of the regiment as fusiliers (as opposed to its seniority), and the identifying colour scheme assigned to that regiment. The three original Fusilier regiments (RF, RSF, RWF) all wore the grenadiers white hackle originally awarded to them on the right side of bearskin headdress. This had originally been on the left, but was moved to the right when the 1st Foot Guards were awarded the title of Grenadiers, thus adopting the same white plume in it’s traditional left side of a bearskin. The intent of the overall arrangement was to establish a differentiation. Conversely, all other Fusiliers awarded that honorific title subsequently, were granted a brightly coloured plume worn on the left. The colour for the Lancashire Fusiliers was primrose yellow, which took on a darker hue when rendered by orthochromatic film**. The subject photo is difficult to identify with certainty, as there are no shoulder titles, and it would be extremely unusual for these to be omitted by a Fusilier unit. It’s also difficult to be sure about the colour of the hackle worn in the left side of the Wolseley helmet, although it does appear to have a hue that would be commensurate with the Lancashire Fusiliers yellow. Guards, Highlanders and cavalry can all be ruled out due to the other visible features of the soldier’s uniform. **the red and white plume was never worn by the Lancashire Fusiliers. It was the plume of the Northumberland Fusiliers and then adopted by the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers upon its formation in 1968. Edited 3 February by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travers61 Posted 7 February Share Posted 7 February (edited) On 03/02/2024 at 17:00, mancpal said: There is a James Lawler (Lawlor on MIC with Lawler written above. He qualified for the BWM and VM which would fit with the photograph and he served on after the war which again would fit. The absence of a star medal (either version) would rule out Gallipoli. This Lawler was with the Royal Welch Fusiliers (who at one point wore a single pale coloured ‘cockade’) with service numbers 6728, 200181 and 4178015. The latter being a post war service number. This is one for Frogsmile I believe. Simon Hi Donal, If it helps to rule the RWF soldier in or out the indexes to service records held by the MoD in 2017 (source Ancestry) show his date of birth as 6th July 1891. He is listed here as 4178013. He was in the 4th Territorial Force Battalion (formerly Denbeighshire Rifle Volunteers) during WW1 & after. The battalion pre war had companies based at Wrexham, Ruthin, Acrefair, Denbeigh, Coedpath, Gwyersylit, Rhosllanerchrugog, Llangollen & Chirk. Entered a theatre of war 6th Nov 1914 as a drummer. Travers Edited 7 February by travers61 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 7 February Share Posted 7 February (edited) The soldier in the photo is most definitely not wearing the uniform and insignia of the Royal Welsh Fusiliers. I realise that you are clarifying his details to rule him out. Edited 7 February by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travers61 Posted 7 February Share Posted 7 February Just now, FROGSMILE said: The soldier in the photo is most definitely not wearing the uniform and insignia of the Royal Welsh Fusiliers. Thanks for confirming. I noticed when looking there were James Lawlor's in several other fusilier regiments. Travers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 7 February Share Posted 7 February 7 minutes ago, travers61 said: Thanks for confirming. I noticed when looking there were James Lawlor's in several other fusilier regiments. Travers It’s possible he’s a Lancashire Fusilier going by his ‘plume’, it’s a pity he isn’t wearing a shoulder title to confirm. I can’t quite make out his buttons, but unusually they do appear to be regimental pattern rather than general service as per regulation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travers61 Posted 7 February Share Posted 7 February (edited) Nothing in the index of men born before 1901 & discharged 1920 or later with a post Aug 1920 Lancashire Fusiliers service number. Edited 7 February by travers61 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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