Australian / South African Leather Frog for P1907 - rising sun marking

[Harzer]

I have another question to the experts in this forum. My experience with your competence is great.

 

I found a leather frog for a P1907 bayonet in almost mint condition. The frog itself looks like a South African model but it has a rising sun marking for Australian Army use but no broad arrow marking. The rising sun design in its form seems to be a version between 1904 and 1949 based on the format of the crown but the leather looks so good that I can barely believe that it is min. 80 years old... Based on the missing broad arrow do you think it is a military version or private use and more a commercial item. 

BR

 

Thomas

 

 

 

 

 

[Fromelles]

It's not a WW1 military issue item, and to me looks to be of recent make. The Australian 'CP' (Commonwealth Pattern) frog is quite a bit different than this, so it may very well be South African, but why then the Rising Sun, I wouldn't know.

Dan

[Harzer]

Fully agree it seems not to be a WW1 item. Could be produced in the late 40ths than it would fit to the rising sun design with the older crown which was used till 1949. 

The South African model and the Australian marking I have no idea. May be privately done.... 

 

Beside this I have added a picture of a real Australian leather frog. Why is there a P below the broad arrow?

 

Thanks for all answers

 

Thomas

 

[4thGordons]

2 hours ago, Harzer said:

 Why is there a P below the broad arrow?

Pure guess on my part but the broad arrow is an acceptance for service mark so the letter may indicated the depot at which it was accepted (perhaps Perth?) 

The other alternative might be it corresponds to a particular inspector (although these are usually numbers rather than letters)

There are letters which correspond to manufacturers and locations for other sorts of inspections/proofs on weapons etc.

Chris

Edited 2 February by 4thGordons

[Fromelles]

Yes, the Arrow 'P'

On 03/02/2024 at 03:36, 4thGordons said:

The other alternative might be it corresponds to a particular inspector (although these are usually numbers rather than letters)

There are letters which correspond to manufacturers and locations for other sorts of inspections/proofs on weapons etc.

Chris

Chris,

You're correct, it is an inspector's mark. The use of one or two letters (instead of numbers) is correct for Australian manufactured/inspected items, it's a quick way to identify if a piece originated from Oz or Briain.

Thomas,

That's the CP frog, used from pre-WW1 till well into the 40s. Though normally made in brown leather yours looks to be black which may be a cavalry  thing...I'm not really sure. 

Dan

Edited 4 February by Fromelles

[Chasemuseum]

A few years ago the South African leather frogs were readily available in large quantities and cost almost nothing. I would suggest that somebody used that rising sun badge to add value to the frogs for marketing and that that rising sun badge has no relationship to Australian military use and that the frog was never used in Australian service.

 

As for the WW2 Australian frog by Denzildon, in the late 1970s these were readily available, unissued in unlimited quantity for a nominal price. That was nearly 50 years ago now. They are no longer so readily available. They were a standard issue item to troops using P1903 equipment such as WW2 light horse troops and various troops in line of communications duties. Australia manufactured 5pocket and 9 pocket P1903 bandoliers and the various other parts of P1903 through WW2. What were the last years of manufacture ? unknown, possibly 1942. But as I say this undoubtably someone will post photos of some 1945 items.  

[navydoc16]

On 04/02/2024 at 13:34, Chasemuseum said:

A few years ago the South African leather frogs were readily available in large quantities and cost almost nothing. I would suggest that somebody used that rising sun badge to add value to the frogs for marketing and that that rising sun badge has no relationship to Australian military use and that the frog was never used in Australian service.

 

As for the WW2 Australian frog by Denzildon, in the late 1970s these were readily available, unissued in unlimited quantity for a nominal price. That was nearly 50 years ago now. They are no longer so readily available. They were a standard issue item to troops using P1903 equipment such as WW2 light horse troops and various troops in line of communications duties. Australia manufactured 5pocket and 9 pocket P1903 bandoliers and the various other parts of P1903 through WW2. What were the last years of manufacture ? unknown, possibly 1942. But as I say this undoubtably someone will post photos of some 1945 items.  

Correct, at the same time, STOKES in Melbourne sold off all their dies and stamping equipment. I know a lot of gear ended up stamped with the military and navy logos when they had no business being. I own two dies from them that I bought at auction. Mine were for buttons. Likely that is the size for slouch hat badges. 

I made little leather keychains for my mates using the Dies I bought. Attached below 

as you can see the unscrupulous can easily make money off of genuine folks 

kind regards,

G

Edited 8 April by navydoc16