Royal Marine Artillery posting to "Cyclops" WW1

[Graham Stacey]

I have an ancestor who enlisted in Royal Marine Artillery on 22 September 1887. From his service record there is a long list of postings until October 1908 when his record was stamped Royal Fleet Reserve. He received a Long Service Good Conduct Medal, I think in 1905 but writing on form is difficult to read. He was Mobilised again in 1914, by which time he was aged 48. He was posted to "Cyclops" from from 2 Aug to 31 Dec 1914. In the 'Wounds and Hurts' section it states 27 to 31 Aug 1914 at Ostend. I've read elsewhere that the Royal Marines landed at Ostend on 27 Aug 1914 and re-embarking on 31 Aug for Dunkirk so this was the time he was wounded. However, I struggling to understand this "Cyclops" posting and what relevance it has.

Subsequent to this he was posted to Royal Arthur 1 Jan 1915 to 30 Sep15, then Cyclops II from 1 Oct 1915 to 30 Jan 1919, then RMA (Depot?) until he was demobilises on 8 Mar 1919 by which time he would have been aged 53. He was awarded 1914 Star & Clasp (Due to Cyclops posting on medal roll), Victory & BW medal and in Oct 1919 the Meritorious Service Medal. 

From what I've read elsewhere Cyclops was a repair ship that served at Scapa Flow throughout the war, so why does my RMA ancestor's record show he was with Cyclops in Ostend?

[horatio2]

A name and number would help.

Or post his record.

Edited 27 January by horatio2

[horatio2]

57 minutes ago, Graham Stacey said:

He was posted to "Cyclops" from from 2 Aug to 31 Dec 1914

I think you may be mis-reading the record. The RMA Battalion which deployed to Ostend remained 'on the books' of HQ RMA at Eastney. CYCLOPS was not present at, and had nothing to do with the Ostend ops. She was, as you note, a depot ship at Scapa Flow. A number of men of the RMA Battalion were drafted to CYCLOPS at Scapa in December 1914, the RMA Battalion having being dispersed in September 1914 on return to UK. from Ostend.

[horatio2]

An entry in the Wounds and Hurts section does not, unless wounds are specified, indicate a wounding. That section was also used to record deployments. The RMA Battalion saw no action at Ostend.

Was your man perchance Gunner CATTLE RMA/3471?

Edited 27 January by horatio2

[Graham Stacey]

He was indeed Samuel John Cattle No 3471. I’m confused about his 1914 Star if he was not deployed other that at Scapa Flow. As there are no wounds described, as you say, why would it still show “at Ostend”. I’ve, hopefully attached his service record. Thanks for your help.Cattle Samuel John Royal Marine service record.pdf

[Keith_history_buff]

online roll compiled by John Marshall, as part of his Jack Clegg Memorial research.

Image courtesy FindMyPast, also available via Fold3/FWR too 

[horatio2]

As predicted:-

He did serve at Ostend in late August 1914, earning the 1914 Star (but not the Clasp thereto). He was not wounded.

He did not serve in HMS CYCLOPS at Scapa in late August 1914. From mobilisation on 2 August to 22 December 1914 (including Ostend) he was on the books of HQ RMA Eastney.

He did serve in HMS CYCLOPS (later CYCLOPS II) at Scapa from 23 December 1914 for most of the rest of the war (nine months in ROYAL ARTHUR at Scapa in 1915) and was awarded the MSM for his time there.   -   https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31452/supplement/8943

Edited 28 January by horatio2

[horatio2]

His MSM (Immediate MSM) was one of 36 awarded to men of the RMA in WW1. In this case the award would probably have been (under the terms of the Admiralty Order in Council of 14 January 1919) "For devotion to duty in a theatre of war" rather than "For gallantry in performance of military duty otherwise than in action against the enemy".

ADM 157 records at TNA   -   https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C15075232

Edited 28 January by horatio2

[KizmeRD]

CYCLOPS II was a land base located at Kirkwall, a depot for land defence and minesweeping activities - quite a number of RMA men were stationed there.

CYCLOPS (I) was a repair ship/depot ship for Northern Patrol trawlers.

MB

[Graham Stacey]

Thanks for the responses.

Horatio2 - regarding the 1914 clasp. I've attached a document which his name appears on and in the Clasp column it records "Cyclops".  Why does this mean he didn't get the Clasp?  Is there somewhere else I should be looking? Thanks for Gazette link, which I had. Re the other link to TNA for a record which is not online - I don't live near London so have never been to TNA. Do you know what this record contains as I have no idea what Discharge papers contain.

[KizmeRD]

Cyclops was where the medal ribbon was sent - after it was first awarded in 1918 (and the medal came later).
It wasn’t anything to do with how he became entitled to it (in 1914)

MB

Edited 28 January by KizmeRD

[Graham Stacey]

Horatio2,

I meant to ask, how did you guess I was enquiring about Cattle S J before I included his name?  

Graham

[horatio2]

14 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

Cyclops was where the medal was sent,after it was awarded in 1918. It wasn’t anything to do with how he became entitled to it in 1914.

Not so, MB.

I think you are confusing his 1914 Star with his MSM The MSM was awarded for CYCLOPS in July 1919, as shown in the ADM 171/61 extract (N.B. This is the MSM Roll, not the 1914 Star Roll) posted above, The MSM issue was made to "District Captain Bristol" (see next column.) his 1914 Star was awarded for Ostend 1914 and was issued to him in person in July 1919. Both medals were issued after his demob.

[horatio2]

26 minutes ago, Graham Stacey said:

I meant to ask, how did you guess I was enquiring about Cattle S J before I included his name?  

Known facts = RMA + Enlistment date + 1914 Star Ostend + MSM  ....and release the tracker dog to sniff him out..

[horatio2]

Chapter 21 on this link gives some background to his Scapa Flow service.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89100004282&view=page&seq=319&skin=2021

[Graham Stacey]

Thanks for clarifying medal query/misunderstanding. And thanks for last link too, will have a read.

One other thing I'm confused on is his rank. Gunner is obviously mentioned but on the medal roll for Star, V & BM, it shows Lance Br. On his service record it shows dates against Corporal 15 Mar 1890? & Sergeant 13 Jun? 1893. Does this mean he achieved these ranks or qualified in some way but wasn't necessarily promoted.

[horatio2]

48 minutes ago, Graham Stacey said:

regarding the 1914 clasp. I've attached a document which his name appears on and in the Clasp column it records "Cyclops".  Why does this mean he didn't get the Clasp?  Is there somewhere else I should be looking? Thanks for Gazette link, which I had. Re the other link to TNA for a record which is not online - I don't live near London so have never been to TNA. Do you know what this record contains as I have no idea what Discharge papers contain.

As noted, this is the MSM Roll. There was no clasp to the MSM so the Clasp column has been used to indicate the service for which the MSM was awarded.

ADM 157 packs at TNA contain Attestation and Discharge papers and, depending on how vigorously the packs have been 'weeded'. there could be more documentation (eg Conduct Sheets)

[horatio2]

23 minutes ago, Graham Stacey said:

One other thing I'm confused on is his rank. Gunner is obviously mentioned but on the medal roll for Star, V & BM, it shows Lance Br. On his service record it shows dates against Corporal 15 Mar 1890? & Sergeant 13 Jun? 1893. Does this mean he achieved these ranks or qualified in some way but wasn't necessarily promoted.

His 1914 Star was earned (at Ostend), marked and issued in the rank of Gunner RMA.

N.B. For WW1 his record does not include rank held.  The fact that his Victory and BWM were marked and issued in the rank of Lance Bombardier indicates that he was promoted at some stage to this (temporary) higher rank. (Bombardier RMA = Corporal.)

The Sergeant and Corporal entries are the dates (1890 and 1893) that he passed (educationally and professionally) for those higher ranks - but he was never so promoted.

Edited 28 January by horatio2

[Graham Stacey]

Brilliant thanks so much.