mjc1 Posted 26 January Share Posted 26 January Good afternoon, My great uncle John Worton forught with the South Staffs Regiment from 1915 onwards. He was injured in 1917 according to the Regimental diaries that exist. Please can you point me in accurate direction to photo or map of the 'KEEP' at Verquin. John was injured there and consequently died of his wounds. It would be nice to put a little piece of pictorial information on his webpage. Thank you for your help Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 27 January Admin Share Posted 27 January Verquin was quite a way behind the lines, here’s a map ©️ WFA. I can’t see a keep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjc1 Posted 27 January Author Share Posted 27 January Hi Michelle, Thank you so much for the map. That is really wonderful! The keep wasn't a KEEP as we would expect it to be, it was a piece of high ground called the keep. I dont understand it either. I have finished My Gt Uncle John's webpage but I am so short on many things. I have not been able to find a map so your find is great! I will have to figure who did what where now. Very grateful. Mike. BTW HIS Page is on theirlostvoices.com Staffordshire grit Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 27 January Admin Share Posted 27 January @Howard and @WhiteStarLine will be able to find you a better map I imagine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted 27 January Share Posted 27 January Putting Verquin into Advanced Search in TrenchMapper gives a point south of Bethune, however, the search also returns the Ferme du Grand Verquin 20 miles north east. Looking at other places in the research, it should be possible to determine which is the right Verquin. Either way, once TrenchMapper has found a point, select different maps in the lower left panel. Some show little detail but some show a lot of trenches-that may help find the elusive Keep. It is truly remarkable how many of these enquiries land up on the edge of maps! Persist and you have a good chance of finding the place, possibly on a composite map, i.e. more than one sheet. Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 27 January Share Posted 27 January (edited) Mike, I would suggest that you find out which battalion of the South Staffs Regt he served in. Download the War Diary of that unit ( see banner headline at very top of screen regarding TNA) at no cost from The National Archives. The WD will give you the location/ activity of that battalion on his wounding & death dates, but will not usually name the Other Ranks who are wounded/killed. EDIT I note that you reference “ Regtl diaries that exist “….is there WD for his Bn? Regards, JMB Edited 27 January by JMB1943 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteStarLine Posted 28 January Share Posted 28 January 6 hours ago, JMB1943 said: The WD will give you the location/ activity of that battalion That's great advice and exactly what you need to do. Assuming you refer to the Verquin locality, TrenchMapper has around 16 maps but almost no marked military positions. A search of the TrenchMapper point of interest database found nothing and the same search on Peter Chasseaud's collection also had no result. Best way to proceed is to come back with some location names from around the same time you found the keep. Also a scan of the paragraph referencing the keep might help place it. There is one feature NW of Verquin but at this stage I'm not sure how relevant it is. Cheers, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjc1 Posted 28 January Author Share Posted 28 January Thank you, Howard, White Star Line and JMB, I appreciate your help. The war diaries, like many, are not specific enough because they do not have and map attached only the actions. So much depends upon the writer of the diary. I cannot narrow things down anywhere to where John was fighting. I know that he was with the 1st/5th Battalion. He was taken to the Canadian Hospital and died on the 11th of May. The British give the dates as the 12th. Was the fact that he was taken to the Canadian Hospital significant? I cannot find any link. Thank you all again. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted 28 January Share Posted 28 January The Brigade War Diary help, 137 Infantry Brigade: 1/5 Battalion, South Staffordshire Regiment. Most unusually, the Diary WO/95/268/2 lists other ranks wounded. John is listed as wounded on 24th June 1917 at Cite-St-Pierre, S Western edge. Sadly the place search in TrenchMapper did not work today- I am sure that will be fixed very soon. Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteStarLine Posted 28 January Share Posted 28 January 6 minutes ago, Howard said: Sadly the place search in TrenchMapper did not work today Howard, I saw you were typing while I was refreshing the database correcting an error someone had pointed out! All should be fine now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjc1 Posted 28 January Author Share Posted 28 January Howard, THANK YOU! Not even the Regimental Museum could give me this much information. I gave up searching further after paying for all of the information that they had. You can teach an old dog new tricks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted 28 January Share Posted 28 January It seems he was wounded on a "Quiet day". Here is the page after a curves adjustment to make it easer to read. As Bill notes, the search now works so you can plot the places in the WD. Just use Pierre, the Cite-St-Pierre comes up in the list. There is a map of 26th June in the list, lower left panel. It does not show much but you can use the fader top right to see what is there now. It must have been a pretty bleak area in 1917. Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjc1 Posted 28 January Author Share Posted 28 January Thank you, this turns my dates upside down but now I know where John was shot. Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 28 January Share Posted 28 January 2 hours ago, Howard said: It seems he was wounded on a "Quiet day". Here is the page after a curves adjustment to make it easer to read. Howard, Another one of many, hit on a “Quiet Day” ! …..”after a curves adjustment”….what programme does this? Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted 28 January Share Posted 28 January (edited) 10 minutes ago, JMB1943 said: Howard, Another one of many, hit on a “Quiet Day” ! …..”after a curves adjustment”….what programme does this? Regards, JMB I use Photoshop but the TrenchMapper team have used Paint.net (free) for cropping etc. and that will do a curves adjustment. Just what curves will do for you is explained in this Photoshop video. Howard Edited 28 January by Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjc1 Posted 28 January Author Share Posted 28 January This is the diary entry that I have been working from as provided by Staffs Research team. But in either case I can little conclusive evidence. The evidence of J Worton being hospitalised is listed on the 30th so is after the event but, how long after? April 1918 War Diary. Also includes reports on Keep..pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 28 January Share Posted 28 January Howard, Many thanks! Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjc1 Posted 28 January Author Share Posted 28 January The date of the sheet mark listing the wounded as being the 24th is confusing. My understanding is that John died 'officially' on the 12th Of MAY. The number is correct; Help!!! He must have been dead before the 24th! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted 28 January Share Posted 28 January (edited) 1 hour ago, mjc1 said: The date of the sheet mark listing the wounded as being the 24th is confusing. My understanding is that John died 'officially' on the 12th Of MAY. The number is correct; Help!!! He must have been dead before the 24th! The CWGC list his date of death as Private J WORTON, Service Number: 242464, Regiment & Unit/Ship, South Staffordshire Regiment, 1st/5th Bn. Died 12 May 1918, Age 20 years old. Buried or commemorated at ETAPLES MILITARY CEMETERY, LXV. B. 2. The date of wounding is 24th June 1917, almost a year before. It may be worth looking for his medical record to determine exactly what happened. That is not an area I know much about but others on this forum are good at that stuff. His death may have nothing to do with his June 1917 wounds. Howard Edited 28 January by Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjc1 Posted 29 January Author Share Posted 29 January Thank you Colonel Howard! The mystery deepens. Certainly the Staffs Regimental Museum have no more information. I wonder can anyone help with this. Thank you Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjc1 Posted 29 January Author Share Posted 29 January Please can anyone with the expertise in seeking out Army medical records could help make sense of Johns wounding and death please? As I understand it he was wounded and then after recovery went back into the ranks. He even had leave and then returned to the fray was wounded and hospitalised and died. Any help would be gratefully received. Many thanks. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 29 January Admin Share Posted 29 January 3 hours ago, mjc1 said: Please can anyone with the expertise in seeking out Army medical records could help make sense of Johns wounding and death please? No medical records have survived other than a fragment of Daily Orders on FMP which shows the earlier wounding. It adds nothing to what you already know. That is whilst serving in France he was wounded twice, the second wound was fatal. As you have posted he appears in a long list of wounded soldiers "Casualties 26th to 30th April 1918" as an Appendix to the April 1918 1/5 South Staffordshire war diary Shown as 'Wounded to Hospital' on 29th April 1918. So passed up the casualty evacuation chain and succumbed to his wounds at a Base Hospital at Etaples on the 12th May. Seems likely his first wounding led to repatriation or treatment in France and was probably granted sick leave while he recuperated. This wound did not take place at the Keep and he appears to have made a full recovery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjc1 Posted 29 January Author Share Posted 29 January Thank you so much Kenf48 I am so glad that I was on the correct path. The lack of records for medical treatment leaves me without some little information but it isn't vital. Thank you again. This can be closed now I think. Best Wishes. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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