German cemeteries on the Somme

[CROONAERT]

What about them?

Is it just me, or is there actually no post to answer here?

Dave.

Just noticed. It looks like I started this topic. I didn't!!! This was supposed to be the first answer to the question (whatever it was). - very confused now!!!!

Edited 18 April , 2005 by CROONAERT

[CROONAERT]

Just in case, it was a location question, this map should help. (Purple dots are German cemeteries, orange are Britich and green are French)...

Dave.

[Sgt_Hazell_Great_Grandson]

Interesting map.I didn`t start the topic either, but why are there so many more British than German ? Are the German ones bigger ?

Roland.

[CROONAERT]

why are there so many more British than German ? Are the German ones bigger ?

German cemeteries are usually many smaller cemeteries concentrated into a few larger ones. (They were the invaders don't forget. The French were less likely to be happy about letting them keep land to bury their dead on French soil than they were the Brits! )

Yes, the German ones are larger (usually), the smallest ones being similar size to medium CWGC cemeteries. For example, the ones in the Somme (departement) contain the following...

Sapignies - 1,550

Achiet-le-Petit - 1,314

Villers au Flos - 2,491

(These first 3 are actually in the Pas de Calais, but are shown on the above map, those listed below are on the Somme)

Fricourt - 17,026

Rancourt - 11,422

Bray sur Somme - 1,122

Proyart - 4,643

Vermandovillers - 22,600

Caix - 1,264

Bethencourt - 1,242

Manicourt - 7,326

Morisel - 2,642

Andechy - 2,254

Roye - 6,545

Muille-Villette - 1,534

Montdidier - 8,051

Also, not forgetting the WW2 cemetery at Bourdon containing the remains of 22,213 German servicemen.

Dave.

[Paul Reed]

What Dave says is true - once every village on the German side of the line had a German war cemetery. Many were destroyed or damaged in WW1; in most cases graves were moved to one of the concentration cemeteries either post WW1 or post WW2, when there was a second concentration of WW1 Germans cemeteries. However, many remain; they are likely to stay unmarked until the end of time, I fear.

[Ste]

If you look at the detailed cemetery information on the CGWC site, you can find mention of quite a few German cemeteries that are no longer there, or are unmarked. I have come across a number of such instances when looking for individual British soldiers; by comparing their date of death with facts about the Battalion it is possible to work at that certain one died of wounds in captivity, and were buried in these German cemeteries. They were subsequently concentrated into CWGC burial grounds; the detailed information on the web site explains which smaller cemeteries were concentrated into larger ones, sometimes including German sites.

S

[StAubyns]

Qoute Paul Reed

"However, many remain; they are likely to stay unmarked until the end of time, I fear."

Paul, are these known burial sites, that for some reason, are not being acknowledged?

Regards Geoff

[Guest Simon Bull]

What Dave says is true - once every village on the German side of the line had a German war cemetery. Many were destroyed or damaged in WW1; in most cases graves were moved to one of the concentration cemeteries either post WW1 or post WW2, when there was a second concentration of WW1 Germans cemeteries. However, many remain; they are likely to stay unmarked until the end of time, I fear.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Paul, I am intrigued by this. Are these sites utterly unknown or are there some villages where people have a pretty good idea where they are? I imagine that from time to time people must stumble upon them when they, for example, elect to build a house on the outskirts of a village and begin to find skeletons -- is this so? Presumably most of these would be pretty small cemeteries?

[Paul Reed]

It is difficult to judge how many still remain partially or fully intact; I know of one that potentially runs into four figures, in terms of the number of burials; most of them were buried from 1914 until the early part of the Somme when this particular location was miles from the front. I know that a proportion, if not all, the burials here were in coffins and buried six feet down. They will never come up with the plough. I suspect this location is not unique.

Many German cemeteries were damaged or destroyed at ground level during the war; afterwards there seems to have been little desire to recover them in the way Allied soldiers were. This lack of desire continues to this day in the country were they are buried, I would venture to say with some certainty.

[Guest Simon Bull]

It is difficult to judge how many still remain partially or fully intact; I know of one that potentially runs into four figures, in terms of the number of burials; most of them were buried from 1914 until the early part of the Somme when this particular location was miles from the front. I know that a proportion, if not all, the burials here were in coffins and buried six feet down. They will never come up with the plough. I suspect this location is not unique.

Many German cemeteries were damaged or destroyed at ground level during the war; afterwards there seems to have been little desire to recover them in the way Allied soldiers were. This lack of desire continues to this day in the country were they are buried, I would venture to say with some certainty.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks Paul - an intriguing discovery awaits future archaeologists!

[AOK4]

It is difficult to judge how many still remain partially or fully intact; I know of one that potentially runs into four figures, in terms of the number of burials; most of them were buried from 1914 until the early part of the Somme when this particular location was miles from the front. I know that a proportion, if not all, the burials here were in coffins and buried six feet down. They will never come up with the plough. I suspect this location is not unique.

Many German cemeteries were damaged or destroyed at ground level during the war; afterwards there seems to have been little desire to recover them in the way Allied soldiers were. This lack of desire continues to this day in the country were they are buried, I would venture to say with some certainty.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hello Paul,

The French government took the task of taking care of the German war graves a lot more serious than the Belgian government. They were given all German cemetery plans, registers etc. from during the war in 1919 and 1920 via the Cipa (Commission Interalliée ...). Unlike in Belgium, France started immediately regrouping German cemeteries and making sure they were in a decent state. They surely looked at all known places, however they may not have been very thorough at completely digging up every one. I therefore do not believe in large cemeteries still existing unknown on the Western Front.

Jan

[Paul Reed]

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one, Jan. Many German cemeteries were blown off the map on the Somme by later battles. There appears to be little evidence to show that anyone went looking for them in 1919/20.

[Ralph J. Whitehead]

One smaller one that most likely did not survive was the cemetery in the stone quarry on Hill 110 outside of Fricourt. It was quite close to the front line and given the location I doubt anything was saved or found since.

There was an account I read also from a soldier in the 120th RIR that served in la Boisselle until March 1915. One of the final acts they completed was to remove the regimental dead from a burial area that was under constant enemy fire and move it further to the rear so it appears that some were moved even during the war. I will see if I can locate the section.

Ralph

[Ralph J. Whitehead]

The account states that just before the 120th RIR was relieved from La Boisselle

"We had to take our dead back to Pozieres as their graves would be dug up again and again by shells. Considering the fact that they numbered over a thousand it was no small job. A monument had been cut for our dead in Courcelette and mounted at the entrance to the village opposite head quarters. This monument would sometimes lie on one side or stand upside down and more of it was shot away every day until finally one day it stopped a big one and was reduced to gravel."

Ralph

[ianw]

What Paul suggests does ring true. I can't imagine that the French authorities were much exercised in finding every last German casualty. I would have thought that the present German Government would be mandated to ensure that a large number of their Dead should be correctly dealt with. However, I suspect that the prospect of exhuming a large number wouldn't be politically attractive to either France or Germany.

Sleeping dogs & sleeping soldiers, I think.

[Guest Howoodall]

Many thanks for all the replies on this topic, which I started, accidentally, late at night!

Any visitor to the Somme today, courtesy of people like yourselves, can find out a great many personal details, photos and records of individuals who are buried on the Somme. This massively enhances and personalises any visit there.

But there seems nothing comparable on the German dead. I think I have seen only one reference, I can't remember who, to a particular German soldier buried at Achiet Le Petit, in a very fine book called "All the Kaisers Men".

This means that German cemeteries, already notably gloomy places with trees and forest of black crosses, are simply that. There is nothing about any of the individuals buried there apart from their name, rank, and date of death....

This to me is a shame, Ernst Jungers Copse 125 brings out a whole range of personalities he fought with. Their British counterparts often have substantial biogs to go with their gravestones, but the Germans are anonymous in death.

Bye the bye I'm sure Paul Reed is right about the impracticality of any sort of investigation of possible German war cemeteries. I think he may have in mind the one he alludes to in his book on Courcelette. One day, however, there may be some German documentary maker - with a possible ancestor "buried" near Courcellette - who could produce a few thousand Euros to a French farmer

in return for the rights to a dig. Might make an interesting programme!

[Paul Reed]

Thanks for starting what has turned out to be an interesting thread; I agree, we are lacking the 'human' dimension with the German dead. However, fellow forum member Ralph Whitehead has been researching the German Army on the Somme for a number of years, and I know his forthcoming book will highlight the sort of detail you seek. We all eagerly await is arrival!

[CROONAERT]

Many thanks for all the replies on this topic, which I started, accidentally, late at night! 

Who started it??? Get away - you just titled it!!!!

Dave.

[Hedley Malloch]

I think I am correct in saying that the only commemoration of any sort to the German dead in the northern Somme battlefield is a small memorial plaque in the Chapel beside the Serre Road cemeteries.

I once read that a German concentration cemetery for the northern Somme was planned for Miraumont. It was scheduled to be built in the 30s, one of the last of the German cemeteries to be laid out in the initial round of post-war cemetery building. It was seen as a complement to the one at Fricourt. During the battlefield clearances of the 20s, the remains of German soldiers found in the area were kept in the quarry at Miraumont, awaiting the eventual arrival of the construction crews. When they did turn up to start work they found that all the bodies had disappeared. The project was abandoned.

What happened to the remains is a matter of conjecture, but it was suggested that the local farmers used them as fertiliser.

Has anyone else heard this?

[Paul Reed]

New one on me - do you have a source for it? There was a war-time cemetery at Miraumont, which was moved to Fricourt in the 20s.

[Guest Howoodall]

I can recall, though not precisely, a reference by Henry Williamson (The Tarka The Otter Man) who visited the Somme where he fought in the 20's and observed the burning of German corpses in the remains of their heavy greatcoats. This stickes in my mind, because he is very respectful of the Germans in general but is extremely anti-French!