ersatz Posted 22 January Share Posted 22 January (edited) I recently added a 98/05 Sawback bayonet to my machine gun section. It is a W15, ERFURT and marked: 93.R.M.G. on the guard. I thought it was rather interesting that a wartime 98/05 was issued to a machine gun squad when usually 10" & 12" blade bayonets seemed to be the norm. I checked Carter's, Vol. 1 for any mention of a MG marking. I found no reference. I also checked Jeff Noll's, book on Regimental Markings, pgs. 137-140 covering the 98/05 variants, and still no reference to a MG marked 98/05. My question: Is it a common or uncommon practice for a 98/05 bayonet to be issued to a MG squad? Thank you for your kind attention! TED Edited 23 January by ersatz word added Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyBsk Posted 23 January Share Posted 23 January Nice piece, in war time is normal that various bayonets were used, maybe in prewar would be this not real as this was a pioneer item, anyway post 1914 all units were equiped with S98/05, the sawback version have a reason as KS98 was too sawbacked, and most real many S84/98nAS were MG marked, so this is from unit form, the unit itselft is not fully serialed so it was in depot of 93 Inf.Regiment by MG kompanie, is possible in wartime the MG units on regiment level were streghtened, but here is missing the weapon nr. which means the unit is not complete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander McLean Posted 23 January Share Posted 23 January Hello, Ted - It is indeed unusual to find a S98/05 bayonet issued to a machine gun unit instead of a shorter S84/98 bayonet, but it makes perfect sense to issue engineer/pioneer ("sawback") bayonets to those units. [After all, those bayonets were intended to be tools used to clear brush, etc., and they would be very useful in preparing concealed firing positions.] Possibly a temporary shortage of S84/98 engineer bayonets led to your longer S98/05 bayonet being issued instead to the machine gun unit. Just a thought .... Congratulations for a very nice find! Regards, Torrey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafal1971 Posted 23 January Share Posted 23 January Everyone is delighted that you bought this bayonet - great - I'm happy too Answering the question. Bayonets with MG markings are rare. They usually concerned companies or units/abtailungs (small units). I haven't seen long bayonets (71, 98, 98/02, 98, etc.) with this marking (but maybe I haven't seen many). 84/98 A.a. 84/98N. a., 98/05 N a, 14 and Gottscho, kS98. but they are rare. The markings come in various configurations. Without the gun number, Carter and I think Noll were referred to as headquarters. But in this case the company headquarters - I doubt it. Rather, the type designation we have in the 93rd regiment is the MG company, so let's designate it that way. And since I'm a non-commissioned officer (Sawback), no weapon number - please. And this is how a story is built. Of course, some of it is true, some of it is fiction - just like in war :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyBsk Posted 23 January Share Posted 23 January It depends on period when the MG units were made, pre 1914, independently from larger units, part of Infanterie Regiments, the Rudiger clearly wrote similar stamps are not fullended as there is missing the end of weapon stamp. Even HQ units have their numbering, problem by similar items is they are wartime, the real stamp could be done by preparation of the MG part but was not endstamped by weapon nr. for various reasons. And in Williams are reported more as one S98/05nAS with MG stamp, site 435 as sample. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 23 January Share Posted 23 January I don't think there is anything too surprising with this marking. From the 1915 date of manufacture at the Imperial Arsenal Erfurt we can assume that this is a wartime unit marking. And it follows with the early war structure of the Infanterie Regiment with each having just the single Maschinen-Gewehr-Kompanie attached, so no need for another Kompanie number. Later in the war I believe further MGK were allocated per unit, and towards the end of the war the MG units became more independent and numbered accordingly. But as this marking is early wartime it is entirely appropriate and does its job of showing which section this piece belongs to. Wartime markings were often more fit for purpose rather than always entirely by the regulations. Source: https://prussianmachine.com/ Cheers, SS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafal1971 Posted 23 January Share Posted 23 January And as you can see, even Andy agrees with me. In times of peace, everything - Regulations - Ordnung must sain. Letters and numbers as the Emperor ordered, At war - whatever you want... and we have puzzles and fun Without nr weapon Only 4.H Without squadron number Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ersatz Posted 23 January Author Share Posted 23 January Thank you gentlemen for your very interesting insight and details covering my MG marked 98/05 sawback. This is the fourth MG bayonet in my collection, the others being a 71/84 aA Plain blade, a KS98, an 84/98 nA Plain blade and this 98/05. I also think it somewhat unusual that there are plain blade MG marked bayonets knowing that the sawback models were used for utilitarian purposes like clearing brush, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 23 January Share Posted 23 January 23 hours ago, ersatz said: My question: Is it a common or uncommon practice for a 98/05 bayonet to be issued to a MG squad? Thank you for your kind attention! TED It is almost irrelevant if it was common or uncommon practice - the answer is it happened. And in wartime - of course it happened.!! Anyone who says it is impossible due to some regulation or some textbook has spent far too much time in the books and not enough time looking at the physical evidence and the photos. See below an image cropped from a fantastic photo on Flikr from the Drakegoodman collection, which clearly shows an MG unit issued with the S.98/05 bayonets. (Image added for information and research purposes only) Source: https://www.flickr.com/photos/drakegoodman/8290900656 Cheers, SS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafal1971 Posted 23 January Share Posted 23 January It's an anti-aircraft unit, but the photo is great He's rather bothered by the large 98.05aa flying next to his leg, but he's only passing ammunition :-) I hope he didn't hurt the shooter :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 23 January Share Posted 23 January (edited) NOT an anti-aircraft unit. It is the 3.MGK attached to an Infanterie Regiment which is apparently identified as the 3.Bayerische, albeit shown in an anti-aircraft configuration on the Eastern Front.? PS. Reverse of postcard is shown click right arrow on image. Some assistance with the translation and exact location of unit would be useful please. It may not even be Bayerische.? Cheers, SS Edited 23 January by shippingsteel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyBsk Posted 24 January Share Posted 24 January As exist both type of marking also wout the last weapon nr. and normal so, i would believe the unsigned are not fullstamped as in wartime could be this caused. Mainly by Ersatz units is this far more time to find. Picture is nice. 4H is on wrong side of bayonet,even by this condition is hard to say, there was something on revese crossguard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafal1971 Posted 24 January Share Posted 24 January 4.H is the only regimental marking on this 1915 Erfurt bayonet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafal1971 Posted 24 January Share Posted 24 January 13 hours ago, shippingsteel said: NOT an anti-aircraft unit. It is the 3.MGK attached to an Infanterie Regiment which is apparently identified as the 3.Bayerische, albeit shown in an anti-aircraft configuration on the Eastern Front.? PS. Reverse of postcard is shown click right arrow on image. Some assistance with the translation and exact location of unit would be useful please. It may not even be Bayerische.? Cheers, SS I don't think Drake made a mistake in identifying the unit There is also a statement below from Paranoid_womba, who does not comment on the identification! They are very respectable collectors of German postcards, photos and bayonets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ersatz Posted 24 January Author Share Posted 24 January My next posting was going to ask if a member had any photos of a MG gunner wearing a 98/05 and sure enough SS came through. Thank you! Certainly in War anything goes to say the least! And again, gentlemen, thank you for your participation. TED.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuluwar2006 Posted 24 January Share Posted 24 January Dear ersatz, what a wonderful and desired to get unit marking!!! Excellent!!! Regards, D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ersatz Posted 1 February Author Share Posted 1 February On 24/01/2024 at 16:11, zuluwar2006 said: Dear ersatz, what a wonderful and desired to get unit marking!!! Excellent!!! Regards, D. Thank You D ! My regards, TED......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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