Help with handwriting - Researching my great-grandad - Charles Richard Williams

[NAL20]

Hi everyone,

I am very, very new this so apologies if I make any faux pas!

I've recently begin researching the life of my great grandfather. I've managed to find a really interesting navy record for him, listing his postings, dates, physical appearance etc.  Name is Charles Richard Williams and he was from Liverpool

I am really struggling with the handwriting though, specifically when trying to decipher his discharge reason, and his ships.

He was in the navy between 1910 and 1917. He lived until the 1960's but I've been told he suffered a lot of pain throughout his life as a result of a gas attack during WW1.

Can anyone help me with deciphering the handwriting? Thank you so much

Images from Navy Registers of Seamen's Services

 

Edited 22 January by NAL20

[horatio2]

20 minutes ago, NAL20 said:

He was in the navy between 1910 and 1917.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6918532

Where does 1917 come from? This stoker rating did not serve in the RN after July 1912, when he was discharged invalided. He does not appear on the WW1 Medal Roll as K.8536.

When and where was he subject to "a gas attack during WW1."?

[NAL20]

2 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6918532

Where does 1917 come from? This stoker rating did not serve in the RN after July 1912, when he was discharged invalided. He does not appear on the WW1 Medal Roll as K.8536.

When and where was he subject to "a gas attack during WW1."?

Thank you, I can see now you’ve pointed it out that it says Invalided.

i thought the date next to it was 3/12/17 - am I misreading?

[horatio2]

The Remarks entry reads "Traced Chelsea Hosp[ital] 3/12/17" but has no relevance to the date of discharge, which is his last day on the books of HMS VIVID (Devonport Barracks)m 4 July 1912. In December 1917 he was traced as a patient at the Chelsea Hosp.

[Michelle Young]

I see Transferred Chelsea Hospital invalided hernia rt 3/12/17 

Above it might be a badly spelt hydrocele

he also had a scar back rt hand as far as I can make out 

[horatio2]

Just now, Michelle Young said:

Above it might be a badly spelt hydrocele

Nothing so fancy. It says he was awarded 7 days Cells punishment and had his Character (C) reduced to Good from VG. Actual crime not recorded.

[NAL20]

1 minute ago, horatio2 said:

The Remarks entry reads "Traced Chelsea Hosp[ital] 3/12/17" but has no relevance to the date of discharge, which is his last day on the books of HMS VIVID (Devonport Barracks)m 4 July 1912. In December 1917 he was traced as a patient at the Chelsea Hosp.

Thank you, and apologies if I seem clueless, I am so new to all of this.

He was issued a mercantile marine ribbon in 1919 and the mercantile marine medal in 1922. So that must have been for activity after 1912 from what I can gather?

It does say ?army .

Unfortunately I wasn't privileged enough to meet him, so I don't know where or when the gas attack was, I've just heard family stories.

[horatio2]

Possibly this Labour Corps man?   https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D5887849

[NAL20]

4 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

Possibly this Labour Corps man?   https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D5887849

Thank you, that could definitely be him, thanks so much 

[MerchantOldSalt]

I don't think C R Williams 129870 Labour Corps is your Great Grandfather.  If you look at the reverse of the MIC the address of the recipient is 12 Andrew Street, Middleton Junction, Nr Manchester. Not to mention that this chap was commissioned as a 2nd Lieutenant

In 1914 his marriage Certificate gives his employment as a Marine Fireman living at 22 Smeaton Street so he was in the Merchant Service.

Until  15 Sep 1915 he is a Trimmer later promoted to Fireman/Trimmer on the SS ORITA 118010 belonging to the Pacific Steam Navigation Co living at 28 Kingswood Avenue Aintree. His previous ship was the SS AQUITANIA 135583 belonging to the Cunard Steamship Co.

His Merchant Service Medal card  states he was still living at Kingswood Avenue, though at Number 48 in 1922. Which doesn't tally with the Manchester address

In Oct 1920 his CR10 Identity Card with photo, shows he is a fireman on a Saint Class rescue tug the ST CATHERINE belonging to the Admiralty so back at sea with the Merchant Service.  Sometimes the recorded ships' Official Numbers on these cards are not correct so this is not necessarily 100% the case.

His Merchant Service Medal Card shows that he received a British War Medal issued by the army, he would not have received it as a Merchant Seaman, so this is likely the case.  I can find no army service record for him and there are just too many Charles R Williams to confidently say where he served but as 129870 Labour Corps is unlikely.

The attached photo is rom his CR10 identity card in 1920 from FindMyPast and the National Archives

Tony

 

[NAL20]

1 hour ago, MerchantOldSalt said:

I don't think C R Williams 129870 Labour Corps is your Great Grandfather.  If you look at the reverse of the MIC the address of the recipient is 12 Andrew Street, Middleton Junction, Nr Manchester. Not to mention that this chap was commissioned as a 2nd Lieutenant

In 1914 his marriage Certificate gives his employment as a Marine Fireman living at 22 Smeaton Street so he was in the Merchant Service.

Until  15 Sep 1915 he is a Trimmer later promoted to Fireman/Trimmer on the SS ORITA 118010 belonging to the Pacific Steam Navigation Co living at 28 Kingswood Avenue Aintree. His previous ship was the SS AQUITANIA 135583 belonging to the Cunard Steamship Co.

His Merchant Service Medal card  states he was still living at Kingswood Avenue, though at Number 48 in 1922. Which doesn't tally with the Manchester address

In Oct 1920 his CR10 Identity Card with photo, shows he is a fireman on a Saint Class rescue tug the ST CATHERINE belonging to the Admiralty so back at sea with the Merchant Service.  Sometimes the recorded ships' Official Numbers on these cards are not correct so this is not necessarily 100% the case.

His Merchant Service Medal Card shows that he received a British War Medal issued by the army, he would not have received it as a Merchant Seaman, so this is likely the case.  I can find no army service record for him and there are just too many Charles R Williams to confidently say where he served but as 129870 Labour Corps is unlikely.

The attached photo is rom his CR10 identity card in 1920 from FindMyPast and the National Archives

Tony

 

This is absolutely amazing, that was his address in Aintree, so it does all seem to fit.

How incredible that you found this and shared it with me, thank you, truly.

I agree the Manchester address doesn't fit, that must have been someone else.

Thank you again, honestly made my week with this information

[MerchantOldSalt]

......there is, however, a Pension Card for Charles Richard Williams, 125950, Private in the Labour Corps, whose widow is Elizabeth Jane, no maiden name, but a coincidence if it isn't him. The dates of him joining and leaving the Labour Corps fit in between his leaving the ORITA in 1915 and joining the his next ship in 1920 but that may just be a coincedence.

This man was awarded a Silver War Badge no. LC/490 and I would like to think that is what he is wearing on his right lapel in the CR10 photo, though it is hard to tell.  I'm not well up on WW1 pensions, and don't know if his wife who is described not surprisingly as his widow, would have received a pension as late as 1963.

Tony

Edited 23 January by MerchantOldSalt

[NAL20]

5 minutes ago, MerchantOldSalt said:

......there is, however, a Pension Card for Charles Richard Williams, 125950, Private in the Labour Corps, whose widow is Elizabeth Jane, no maiden name, but a coincidence if it isn't him. The dates of him joining and leaving the Labour Corps fit in between his leaving the ORITA in 1915 and joining the his next ship in 1920 but that may just be a coincedence.

This man was awarded a Silver War Badge no. LC/490 and I would like to think that is what he is wearing on his right lapel in the CR10 photo, though it is hard to tell.  I'm not well up on WW1 pensions, and don't know if his wife who is described not surprisingly as his widow, would have received a pension as late as 1963.

Tony

Hi, 

 

Yes his widow (my great grandmother) was Elizabeth Jane - maiden name Guard. I don't know anything about the pensions either but as he passed away in 1963 at the age of 73 - it would make sense.

I was also told he worked as a police officer in Liverpool for a while, but I don't know the years, just post war.

Maybe he was in Manchester for a while. He was originally from Wales, and I know he lived in Liverpool, then Southport, but I guess as a young man he may have spent some time in Manchester.

Thank you so much

[MerchantOldSalt]

...this is definitely your G.Grandfather, here is another pension card with his address on it albeit crossed out, and another address in Southport. Courtesy of Fold3 via WFA. Where do you get Wales from, all his paperwork I have found has born Aintree 16 July 1890?

Tony 

Edited 23 January by MerchantOldSalt

[NAL20]

25 minutes ago, MerchantOldSalt said:

...this is definitely your G.Grandfather, here is another pension card with his address on it albeit crossed out, and another address in Southport. Courtesy of Fold3 via WFA. Where do you get Wales from, all his paperwork I have found has born Aintree 16 July 1890?

Tony 

Apologies my mistake - it was his parents born in wales, not him. And yes that’s the Southport address I knew for him 

 

this is amazing 

[Matlock1418]

On 23/01/2024 at 17:11, MerchantOldSalt said:

Note: Dis[charged] 7-12-17

When discharged as medically unfit the £30 Gratuity rather suggests that for his condition he was accordingly awarded in lieu of a pension under the 1917 RW, Art 7: either (1) as less than 20% disablement or (2) unfitness not attributed to nor aggravated by his wartime service [and not due to serious negligence or misconduct on his behalf]

M

Edited 25 January by Matlock1418

[Matlock1418]

On 23/01/2024 at 16:58, MerchantOldSalt said:

I'm not well up on WW1 pensions, and don't know if his wife who is described not surprisingly as his widow, would have received a pension as late as 1963.

My understanding is that widows' pensions had moved on a great deal by the 1960s.

For the widow of a discharged ex-military husband: for a widow's pension under the RW his death had to occur within seven years of disablement discharge [subject to attribution or aggravation and provided death not due to serious negligence or misconduct on his behalf]

National state pensions came after 1948

M

Edited 25 January by Matlock1418

[NAL20]

1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said:

Note: Dis[charged] 7-12-17

When discharged as medically unfit the £30 Gratuity rather suggests that for his condition he was accordingly awarded in lieu of a pension under the 1917 RW, Art 7: either (1) as less than 20% disablement or (2) unfitness not attributed to nor aggravated by his wartime service [and not due to serious negligence or misconduct on his behalf]

M

Thank you for this information