West Yorkshire Regiment (prince of wales own)

[Gains]

Hi

Is there anyone out there who has or can interpret these War diaries please? 2/5 battalion West Yorkshire Regiment between 1st - 31st January 1918. 1st January 1918 is when my great grand-uncle died of wounds.

IMAGES COURTESY OF THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES 

[PRC]

8 minutes ago, Gains said:

Is there anyone out there who has or can interpret these War diaries please? 2/5 battalion West Yorkshire Regiment between 1st - 31st January 1918. 1st January 1918 is when my great grand-uncle died of wounds.

Hi,

The only man I can see who died on the 1st January 1918 and who was serving with the 2/5th Battalion was 201266 Private Ernest Frank Gains - apologies in advance if that is not who you are talking about. Soldiers Died in the Great War records him as died of wounds.

Ernest is buried at Rouen and while it is possible that he had gone all the way through the medical evacuation chain to get back to the coast on the same day it is unlikely.

I suspect his wounding is more likely to be in December 1917, any earlier then if his condition was stable enough he would probably have been shifted to the UK. Unfortunately not spotting him as yet in the official casualty lists.

I see FindMyPast have indexed a couple of things for him as a service record, but given they have only listed him as E F Gains I suspect that is their usual trick of turning up a memo \ list in another man's records that also mentions Ernest. A lot of these turn out to be daily status reports of casualties so may be worthwhile checking out - although it could be the same report in two different mens records.

If you have subscription access to Ancestry it may also be worthwhile checking out his entry in the Army Register of Soldiers Effects. This is a financial ledger rather than a list of belongings and sometimes can be a bit more explicit about where someone died.

Cheers,
Peter

[Gains]

10 hours ago, PRC said:

Hi,

The only man I can see who died on the 1st January 1918 and who was serving with the 2/5th Battalion was 201266 Private Ernest Frank Gains - apologies in advance if that is not who you are talking about. Soldiers Died in the Great War records him as died of wounds.

Ernest is buried at Rouen and while it is possible that he had gone all the way through the medical evacuation chain to get back to the coast on the same day it is unlikely.

I suspect his wounding is more likely to be in December 1917, any earlier then if his condition was stable enough he would probably have been shifted to the UK. Unfortunately not spotting him as yet in the official casualty lists.

I see FindMyPast have indexed a couple of things for him as a service record, but given they have only listed him as E F Gains I suspect that is their usual trick of turning up a memo \ list in another man's records that also mentions Ernest. A lot of these turn out to be daily status reports of casualties so may be worthwhile checking out - although it could be the same report in two different mens records.

If you have subscription access to Ancestry it may also be worthwhile checking out his entry in the Army Register of Soldiers Effects. This is a financial ledger rather than a list of belongings and sometimes can be a bit more explicit about where someone died.

Cheers,
Peter

That’s great thanks for replying. Yes it’s Ernest that’s my great grand-uncle. I have an account with ancestry but not find my past and I’ve collected quite a few records but not personal affects so I’ll take a look. I also have the war diary for dec 1917. It’s fascinating to read them and I know some people have translated them so was wondering if there’s anyone that can read them word for word. Thanks 

[TEW]

He's in a Casualty List dated 4/1/18 so probably wounded late Nov to early Dec 1917.

Oddly he's in another list 27/1/18 that says; Previously Reported Died, Now Reported Wounded, Now Reported Died of Wounds.

I looked through the Rouen resources I have and have not seen any reference to him.

There were eight base hospitals in Rouen in Jan 1918. I don't have all the diaries but I think you can eliminate 1 Stationary, 2 BRC, 3 & 11 Stationary.

That leaves 6, 8, 10 & 25 GH. They may or may not name those that died or just give a tally. Diaries are free to download.

Soldiers' Effects doesn't add any detail.

TEW

 

Edited 22 January by TEW
Spelling

[Gains]

7 hours ago, TEW said:

He's in a Casualty List dated 4/1/18 so probably wounded late Nov to early Dec 1917.

Oddly he's in another list 27/1/18 that says; Previously Reported Died, Now Reported Wounded, Now Reported Died of Wounds.

I looked through the Rouen resources I have and have not seen any reference to him.

There were eight base hospitals in Rouen in Jan 1918. I don't have all the diaries but I think you can eliminate 1 Stationery, 2 BRC, 3 & 11 Stationery.

That leaves 6, 8, 10 & 25 GH. They may or may not name those that died or just give a tally. Diaries are free to download.

Soldiers' Effects doesn't add any detail.

TEW

 

Brilliant thanks, do you have copies of the casualty list please?  Do the hospital diaries feature on the regiment war diaries or is it a separate document? 

[TEW]

The casualty lists are very sparse, usually name, rank, number, regiment and date published. I'll see what I can do tomorrow. No injury type, date or location details are given.

The hospital diaries are seperate diaries for each hospital. Free to download from National Archives.

There was no requirement to record deaths in the diaries but some chose to. 3 & 11 Stationary H do give details of deaths and as he's not mentioned it won't be those.

TEW

Edited 22 January by TEW
Spelling

[PRC]

The 4th January 1918 list can be found on the National Library of Scotland website - the page that includes the West Yorkshire wounded, including Ernest, has them towards the top of the left hand column. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/194149460

If you scroll down the webpage you''ll see there are options on the left including to download the page as a medium image file - these are usually a lot easier to work from. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/194149460

Each days lists are split into "Parts with each then divided into killed, died of wounds, etc. There is absolutely no guarantee that the men shown as killed for the West Yorkshire Regiment in the same part of the list died in the same period as Ernest, but always worth a look. They are on the previous page. https://deriv.nls.uk/dcn30/1941/4943/194149436.30.jpg

Names listed are:-

Bamforth 242343 N.L. (Huddersfield. CWGC 2/6^th Bn 22^nd November 1917.
Barnes 265405 W. (Leeds)  Possible – MiC for 265495 William Barnes – but he didn’t die. Serving with the 2/6^th Bn he was taken prisoner on the 21^st November 1917. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/1320643/3/2/
Barnett 20935 A. (Plaistow, E.). CWGC 2/5^th Bn 27^th November 1917.
Bentley 20685 C. (Wibsey) CWGC 2/6^th Bn 27^th November 1917.
Blades 20419 C. (Denaby) CWGC 2/6^th Bn 22^nd November 1917.
Coultish 52246 G. (Hull) CWGC 2/5^th Bn 27^th November 1917.
Creek 38812 C. (Leeds)  CWGC 16^th Bn 5^th December 1917.
Evans 18262 W.A. (Gravesend)  CWGC 2^nd Bn 29^th November 1917.
Foster 93 Cpl. W. (Batley Carr) CWGC 16^th Bn 5^th December 1917.
Griss 52266 W.H. (Sunderland) CWGC 2/6^th Bn 20^th November 1917.
Hardington 52073 J. (London, N.E.) CWGC 2/6^th Bn 22^nd November 1917.
Hawkins 202061 G.W. (Lincoln) CWGC 2/5^th Bn 27^th November 1917.
Hinton 267097 H. (Leeds) CWGC 2/5^th Bn 27^th November 1917.
Houlden 20404 A.P. (Conisborough) CWGC 2/6^th Bn 22^nd November 1917.
Howell 52064 H.H. (London, N.W.) CWGC 2/6^th Bn 20^th November 1917.
Hunt 41944 T.B. (London, S.W.).  There is a MiC for 41944 Thomas B. Hunt but he was discharged to Class Z in March 1919. Serving with the 2/6^th Bn he was taken prisoner on the 22^nd November 1917. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/2305307/3/2/
Ingleson 203945 R.A. (Bradford) There is a MiC for 203945 Robert A. Inglerson. Serving with the 2/6^th Bn he was taken prisoner on the 22^nd November 1917. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/2766474/3/2/
Jackson 202588 W. (Leeds) CWGC 2/5^th Bn 27^th November 1917.
Jones 21616 J. (Murton Colliery).  There is a MiC for 21616 John Jones later 53874 West Riding Regiment. Serving with the 2/6^th Bn he was taken prisoner on the 22^nd November 1917.
https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/4773605/3/2/
McFarlane 41104 L.-Cpl. T. (Felling) CWGC “A” Company 2/6^th Bn 20^th November 1917.
Moore 242482 A. (Batley)  CWGC 2/6^th Bn 22^nd November 1917.
Pickard 201415 Sjt R.W. (Leeds)  CWGC 2/6^th Bn 22^nd November 1917.
Rutter 20410 H.M. (Conisborough). CWGC 2/6^th Bn 22^nd November 1917.
Sanderson 203241 F. (Bradford).  CWGC 2^nd Bn 30^th November 1917.
Senior 57604 E. (Dewsbury). CWGC 2/6^th Bn 22^nd November 1917.
Shoesmith 240943 F. (Bradford) CWGC 2/6^th Bn 22^nd November 1917.
Smith 307589 W. (Harrogate) CWGC 2/6^th Bn 22^nd November 1917.
Stevenson 241926 Cpl. C.E. (Bradford). CWGC 2/6^th Bn 22^nd November 1917.
Taylor 241661 G. (Bradford) CWGC 2/6^th Bn 22^nd November 1917.
Thomas 20415 J. (Conisborough) CWGC 2/6^th Bn 22^nd November 1917.
Walder 40333 A.T. (Woolwich, S.E.). CWGC 2/6^th Bn 22^nd November 1917.

Cheers,
Peter

[Gains]

11 hours ago, TEW said:

The casualty lists are very sparse, usually name, rank, number, regiment and date published. I'll see what I can do tomorrow. No injury type, date or location details are given.

The hospital diaries are seperate diaries for each hospital. Free to download from National Archives.

There was no requirement to record deaths in the diaries but some chose to. 3 & 11 Stationary H do give details of deaths and as he's not mentioned it won't be those.

TEW

Brilliant thank you I appreciate your help. 

11 hours ago, PRC said:

The 4th January 1918 list can be found on the National Library of Scotland website - the page that includes the West Yorkshire wounded, including Ernest, has them towards the top of the left hand column. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/194149460

If you scroll down the webpage you''ll see there are options on the left including to download the page as a medium image file - these are usually a lot easier to work from. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/194149460

Each days lists are split into "Parts with each then divided into killed, died of wounds, etc. There is absolutely no guarantee that the men shown as killed for the West Yorkshire Regiment in the same part of the list died in the same period as Ernest, but always worth a look. They are on the previous page. https://deriv.nls.uk/dcn30/1941/4943/194149436.30.jpg

Names listed are:-

Bamforth 242343 N.L. (Huddersfield. CWGC 2/6^th Bn 22^nd November 1917.
Barnes 265405 W. (Leeds)  Possible – MiC for 265495 William Barnes – but he didn’t die. Serving with the 2/6^th Bn he was taken prisoner on the 21^st November 1917. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/1320643/3/2/
Barnett 20935 A. (Plaistow, E.). CWGC 2/5^th Bn 27^th November 1917.
Bentley 20685 C. (Wibsey) CWGC 2/6^th Bn 27^th November 1917.
Blades 20419 C. (Denaby) CWGC 2/6^th Bn 22^nd November 1917.
Coultish 52246 G. (Hull) CWGC 2/5^th Bn 27^th November 1917.
Creek 38812 C. (Leeds)  CWGC 16^th Bn 5^th December 1917.
Evans 18262 W.A. (Gravesend)  CWGC 2^nd Bn 29^th November 1917.
Foster 93 Cpl. W. (Batley Carr) CWGC 16^th Bn 5^th December 1917.
Griss 52266 W.H. (Sunderland) CWGC 2/6^th Bn 20^th November 1917.
Hardington 52073 J. (London, N.E.) CWGC 2/6^th Bn 22^nd November 1917.
Hawkins 202061 G.W. (Lincoln) CWGC 2/5^th Bn 27^th November 1917.
Hinton 267097 H. (Leeds) CWGC 2/5^th Bn 27^th November 1917.
Houlden 20404 A.P. (Conisborough) CWGC 2/6^th Bn 22^nd November 1917.
Howell 52064 H.H. (London, N.W.) CWGC 2/6^th Bn 20^th November 1917.
Hunt 41944 T.B. (London, S.W.).  There is a MiC for 41944 Thomas B. Hunt but he was discharged to Class Z in March 1919. Serving with the 2/6^th Bn he was taken prisoner on the 22^nd November 1917. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/2305307/3/2/
Ingleson 203945 R.A. (Bradford) There is a MiC for 203945 Robert A. Inglerson. Serving with the 2/6^th Bn he was taken prisoner on the 22^nd November 1917. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/2766474/3/2/
Jackson 202588 W. (Leeds) CWGC 2/5^th Bn 27^th November 1917.
Jones 21616 J. (Murton Colliery).  There is a MiC for 21616 John Jones later 53874 West Riding Regiment. Serving with the 2/6^th Bn he was taken prisoner on the 22^nd November 1917.
https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/4773605/3/2/
McFarlane 41104 L.-Cpl. T. (Felling) CWGC “A” Company 2/6^th Bn 20^th November 1917.
Moore 242482 A. (Batley)  CWGC 2/6^th Bn 22^nd November 1917.
Pickard 201415 Sjt R.W. (Leeds)  CWGC 2/6^th Bn 22^nd November 1917.
Rutter 20410 H.M. (Conisborough). CWGC 2/6^th Bn 22^nd November 1917.
Sanderson 203241 F. (Bradford).  CWGC 2^nd Bn 30^th November 1917.
Senior 57604 E. (Dewsbury). CWGC 2/6^th Bn 22^nd November 1917.
Shoesmith 240943 F. (Bradford) CWGC 2/6^th Bn 22^nd November 1917.
Smith 307589 W. (Harrogate) CWGC 2/6^th Bn 22^nd November 1917.
Stevenson 241926 Cpl. C.E. (Bradford). CWGC 2/6^th Bn 22^nd November 1917.
Taylor 241661 G. (Bradford) CWGC 2/6^th Bn 22^nd November 1917.
Thomas 20415 J. (Conisborough) CWGC 2/6^th Bn 22^nd November 1917.
Walder 40333 A.T. (Woolwich, S.E.). CWGC 2/6^th Bn 22^nd November 1917.

Cheers,
Peter

Peter

thank-you I appreciate your help 

mike 

[TEW]

The list that has been transcribed as: Previously Reported Died, Now Reported Wounded, Now Reported Died of Wounds actually says; Previously Reported Wounded, Now Reported Died of Wounds.

The list of 4/1/18 has a few other 2/5th WY men. 201765 Stringer has a service record that shows he was admitted to a FA 27/11/12 SW Head, leg L then to 21 CCS then to 12 GH Rouen.

Unfortunatley, 12 GH does not record deaths (and wasn't on my list of Rouen hospitals!). It would seem a likely course of action for Gains & Stringer to follow the same route if they were wounded on the same day. There's no guarentee of that.

I said in an earlier post;

Quote

That leaves 6, 8, 10 & 25 GH.

That should read 25 SH, you may want to check TLLT site for a full list of Rouen hospitals. Some have dates yet to be confirmed, there are more than I said previously but you can filter the page just to show Rouen.

I've downloaded 6, 8, 10, 12 & 25 SH and have not seen him. Some do list those that died, others have a monthly tally and others don't bother.

12 GH was not on my list as it was taken over by US Army in June 1917, the same applies to 9 GH, but we know that Stringer did go to 12 GH in Nov 1917.

TEW