JacobR Posted 19 January Share Posted 19 January Hello everyone, This is my first forum post on GWF, so I hope I'm doing this the right way. I was encouraged to ask this on GWF by a fellow member of WW2Talk. I've found the service record for my grandad's great-uncle, Rowland Hill Lawrence, on the NZ archives website, but I'm somewhat struggling to understand it. Service record: Search results - Collections search (archives.govt.nz) (just click on the text for View online to view/download) Extended documentation, which is rather overwhelmingly detailed: Search results - Collections search (archives.govt.nz) (ditto) The handwriting is old and hard to read, and there are many abbreviations that are hard for me to decipher. Any help would be greatly appreciated. To put you in the picture, Rowland joined the army in WW1 as a corporal in B Company of the Wellington Infantry Battalion, and sailed from New Zealand to fight in the war. When he was wounded at Passchendaele, he was a sergeant. He was released from service after the war. Many thanks in advance and warm regards, Jacob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 19 January Admin Share Posted 19 January Welcome to the forum. Unfortunately, the images are not opening for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 19 January Share Posted 19 January (edited) Something strange happens when you click the 'Search' button. My screen goes (rather appropriately) 'All Black'. The only working link I can get gives the battalion roll, it looks from the information provided, that Rowland was 41806. https://www.aucklandmuseum.com/war-memorial/online-cenotaph/record/C87027?n=Rowland+Hill+Lawrence&from=%2Fwar-memorial%2Fonline-cenotaph%2Fsearch&ordinal=0 Edited 19 January by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 19 January Share Posted 19 January 1 hour ago, JacobR said: my grandad's great-uncle, Rowland Hill Lawrence Jacob, Welcome to GWF. Your links don't seem to be working for me either. However a search comes up with Rowland Lawrence HILL https://collections.archives.govt.nz/en/web/arena/search#/entity/aims-archive/R18048071 https://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE21202540 To steal Dai's pun - the screen comes up All Blank - I note a digital image is only available by e-mail 10 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said: The only working link I can get gives the battalion roll, it looks from the information provided, that Rowland was 41806. https://www.aucklandmuseum.com/war-memorial/online-cenotaph/record/C87027?n=Rowland+Hill+Lawrence&from=%2Fwar-memorial%2Fonline-cenotaph%2Fsearch&ordinal=0 I also found that one too M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacobR Posted 19 January Author Share Posted 19 January (edited) 1 hour ago, Michelle Young said: Welcome to the forum. Unfortunately, the images are not opening for me. Sorry, I'll upload the files. The JPGs are the extended documentation and the PDF is the service record. cover-m.pdf Edited 19 January by JacobR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 19 January Share Posted 19 January (edited) There is a lot to look at. To start to help others with searches: His service number was 10/3932 and he was B Company, 10th Reinforcements, Wellington Infantry Regiment As for the rest it would probably help us if you would please highlight/list what you are struggling with. M Edited 19 January by Matlock1418 WIR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacobR Posted 19 January Author Share Posted 19 January 12 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said: Jacob, Welcome to GWF. Your links don't seem to be working for me either. However a search comes up with Rowland Lawrence HILL https://collections.archives.govt.nz/en/web/arena/search#/entity/aims-archive/R18048071 https://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE21202540 To steal Dai's pun - the screen comes up All Blank - I note a digital image is only available by e-mail I also found that one too M The links work for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 19 January Share Posted 19 January Just now, JacobR said: The links work for me. You may be more 'local' than other members ?? = Shorter wires! Thus perhaps more rapid loading - perhaps we should wait longer ?? M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacobR Posted 19 January Author Share Posted 19 January Just now, Matlock1418 said: There is a lot to look at. To start to help others with searches: His service number was 10/3932 and he was B Company, 10th Reinforcements As for the rest it would probably help us if you would please highlight what you are struggling with. M In particular, I'm having trouble with working out his movements with dates, when he was promoted to sergeant, whether he was posted to another battalion, and what happened to him between being wounded and being released from service. 3 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said: You may be more 'local' than other members ?? = Shorter wires! Thus perhaps more rapid loading - perhaps we should wait longer ?? M Maybe, it takes a while to load for me too, but it opens eventually. Sorry for the hitches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 19 January Share Posted 19 January So are 10/3932 and 41806 two different men? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacobR Posted 19 January Author Share Posted 19 January (edited) 6 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said: So are 10/3932 and 41806 two different men? Yes, 41806 was a chap called Rowland Lawrence Hill, not Rowland Hill Lawrence. Very similar names, but the former was killed during the war and the latter is the one I'm trying to research, who was 10/3932. Edited 19 January by JacobR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 19 January Share Posted 19 January 7 minutes ago, JacobR said: In particular, I'm having trouble with working out his movements with dates, when he was promoted to sergeant, whether he was posted to another battalion, and what happened to him between being wounded and being released from service. Bottom line - there is a lot of material on several sheets, some likely duplicating other entries. I suggest, in a friendly way, you try transcribing for yourself and compile a timeline [large piece of paper or digital equivalent - apologies if you have already done this, but it can really help] - then come back with more specific transcription / interpretation challenges. We would like to help you. 4 minutes ago, JacobR said: 10 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said: So are 10/3932 and 41806 two different men? Yes, 41806 was a chap called Rowland Lawrence Hill, not Rowland Hill Lawrence. Very similar names, but the former was killed during the war and the latter is the one I'm trying to research. Good to have got that sorted. M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacobR Posted 19 January Author Share Posted 19 January Just now, Matlock1418 said: Bottom line - there is a lot of material on several sheets, some likely duplicating other entries. I suggest, in a friendly way, you try transcribing for yourself and compile a timeline [large piece of paper or digital equivalent - apologies if you have already done this, but it can really help] - then come back with more specific transcription / interpretation challenges. We would like to help you. Thanks, I've started one, but the old abbreviations are slowing me down a little. Hope to get back to you soon. 😊 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 19 January Share Posted 19 January (edited) If it helps with the timeline - on the Casualty Form - Active Service: 5th column is for date of the event [1st column is date received/recorded on sheet] 4th column is place of event. [2nd column is where received/recorded] M Edited 19 January by Matlock1418 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacobR Posted 19 January Author Share Posted 19 January (edited) 1 minute ago, Matlock1418 said: If it helps with the timeline - on the Casualty Form - Active Service: 5th column is for the event date [1st column is date received/recorded on sheet] 4th column is place of event. [2nd column is where received/recorded] M Thanks so much, @Matlock1418, it's quite a hard document to read . Edited 19 January by JacobR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 19 January Share Posted 19 January 31 minutes ago, JacobR said: Yes, 41806 was a chap called Rowland Lawrence Hill, not Rowland Hill Lawrence. Very similar names, but the former was killed during the war and the latter is the one I'm trying to research, who was 10/3932. I can see that now. I thought Ancestry searches were frustrating enough... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacobR Posted 19 January Author Share Posted 19 January Just now, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said: I can see that now. I thought Ancestry searches were frustrating enough... I agree - Ancestry is a mind-boggling nightmare, IMHO... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 19 January Share Posted 19 January 2 hours ago, JacobR said: I was encouraged to ask this on GWF by a fellow member of WW2Talk. We often send traffic in the other direction - Glad it's a two-way street. M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 19 January Admin Share Posted 19 January 7 hours ago, JacobR said: This is my first forum post on GWF, so I hope I'm doing this the right way. I was encouraged to ask this on GWF by a fellow member of WW2Talk. Welcome to the GWF as Matlock says how could we refuse we do occasionally talk to those who prefer the shiny war My Interpretation of 10/3932 Rowland Hill Lawrence based on the documents posted above which I can't enlarge:- 15th November 1915 enlisted into B Company 10th Reinforcement having previously served in the 11th (Territorial) Regiment (I'm not familiar with NZ enlistment processes from the TF) 29th January 1916 Promoted to Corporal whist in New Zealand (if anything like the British New Army men with any military experience were swiftly promoted to NCO) Embarked for Suez as reinforcement and disembarked 10th April 1916 He joined the 1st (Wellington?) Regiment Training Battalion in Egypt 29th May 1915 Embarked ( probably Alexandria) for England 9th June 1916 Disembarked Liverpool 15 June 1916 Taken on strength at Sling Camp https://digitalnz.org/records/51970417 Whilst there he obtained a first class musketry instruction qualification and was promoted to Sergeant on the 11th May 1916 21st March 1917 posted to BEF as musketry instructor and taken on strength at Etaples Base Depot 21.3.1917 https://www.throughtheselines.com.au/research/etaples 24th April 1917 admitted to 24 General Hospital German Measles 4th May 1917 Discharged and back on base details 27th May 1917 joined 1st Battalion. Wellington Regiment in the field 4th October 1917 Bullet wound in left chest Almost certainly at Broodseide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Broodseinde Entered Casualty Evacuation Chain at Casualty Clearing Station (?8 CCS) then by Ambulance Train to the Base Hospital at Etaples. 5th October 1917 Admitted 9th Canadian General Hospital at Etaples To England on Hospital Ship Newhaven 19th October 1917 Admitted to Tooting Military Hospital (South London) so evacuated from France having passed up the casualty evacuation chain. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/the-evacuation-chain-for-wounded-and-sick-soldiers/ We always recommend if new to researching the Great War you study the Long Long Trail website not least for interpreting documents etc 10th November 1917 Transferred to NZ Convalescent Hospital Hornchurch 3rd December 1917 Forfeited two days pay on (probably some minor transgression I cant’t read it there should be a conduct sheet in his papers but not really relevant. I see it was for two days unauthorised absence, he was also admonished. 26th January 1918 Discharged from hospital and posted to the New Zealand Command Depot at Codford https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/the-evacuation-chain-for-wounded-and-sick-soldiers/command-depots/ 2nd June 1918 admitted to 3 NZ General Hospital for influenza 20th June 1918 discharged and back to Hornchurch Hospital 1st August 1918 Back to NZ Command Depot Codford 14th December 1918 Examined by Medical Board at Codford on and classed as PU 'Permanently Unfit' 19th December 1918 Repatriated from Liverpool on the SS Oxfordshire. 2nd March 1919 Discharged from the Army small pension again let you sort that one out Elsewhere on the records we can see some promotions were temporary he reverted to Corporal but on his discharge papers the rank is Sergeant which will be on his medals, presumably a 'pair' the British War Medal and Victory Medal although is that last slip on his papers a reference to the Military Medal - looks like it - was it for the action in which he was wounded? I can't see any other reference check the war diary Please come back with any further questions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacobR Posted 19 January Author Share Posted 19 January Wow, thanks so very much, that is really helpful, and gives me a good springboard for further research. I'm not that great at WW1 minutiae, my apologies. I hope to post a full timeline on here eventually. Again, many thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 19 January Admin Share Posted 19 January Just downloaded the PDF document It looks as though I was mistaken as to the MM The reference is to Part 2 Daily Orders dated 12.6.1917 and refers to him joining the 1st Battalion Wellington Regiment as a sergeant on the 27th May 1917. I don't know what MM top left refers to He is not listed in the Regimental History as being awarded the MM https://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-WH1-Well-t1-body-d55-d10.html It does say on the slip 'entered on history record' but I can see no entry for medal, only his posting. As well as the action in which he was wounded he also arrived in time for the Battle of Messines I see he died in 1966 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacobR Posted 20 January Author Share Posted 20 January Does R/O mean Reserve of Officers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tullybrone Posted 20 January Share Posted 20 January 3 hours ago, JacobR said: Does R/O mean Reserve of Officers? Hi, Glad you followed my advice to post here. I can see you’ve received much valuable assistance from members. I think R/O is Routine Orders. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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