Andrew1966 Posted 17 January Share Posted 17 January Good afternoon. So when I posted my first 1907 I was told that they become quite addictive. So my first one was a Chapman, my second a vickers and they are joined by a Wilkinson. Bought this today along with a very nice Savage made No.4 mkii pig stick bayonet. I hoping somebody might be able to help with a few questions. Firstly there are various markings stamped on it. The usual government acceptance mark along the bend test, 2 possibly 3 enfield marks and finally a 23. This is the one I am really not sure about. Secondly, looking the scabbard. Sadly I can not find any form of marking on it, can anyone guide me to where I might find any possible markings on it. It also has a round frog button and I have noticed both metal parts have a straight edge rather than being curved as with my other two scabbards. Am I right in assuming these are both ways of cutting down the manufacturing complexities as the demand grew for them. Finally. The dealer also had a 1907 with a tigers or what looked like a tigers head on it and a price tag £295. I have tried googling it but can't find anything about it. Any advice or help would be grateful received. Cheers Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave66 Posted 17 January Share Posted 17 January (edited) Hello Andrew, Another fine addition you have there, quite an early Wilkinson, well done. I can tell you that the 23 is an inspection date for 1923, (there is a corresponding crown/T8/E to the left of it that would have been applied at the same time), your bayonet would have been manufactured without the clearing hole in the pommel so seems logical it was inspected, refurbished and the hole was added at that point… I presume the scabbard had work hence the lack of markings in the leather (it may even be a late replacement)…you may find some small inspection stamps on the locket and chape where the staples are. The bayonet with the tigers head is a contract sent out to Siam post WW1, @JMB1943 has a thread running on these, and I’m sure he would be very interested in recording the number of it….link below. Well done on the No4, I’ve recently unintentionally started amassing those and the other WW2 types, very adictive if you try and put together all the different manufacturers and variants😂😂😂. Dave. Edit…The links below may help with regard scabbard evolution. Edited 17 January by Dave66 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 17 January Share Posted 17 January Dave66, thanks for the heads up on the Smiling Tiger! Andrew, You have a nice-looking bayonet & scabbard pairing there. The blade looks to be rust-free, and the markings are very crisp and clean. Any markings on the leather of a scabbard are usually alongside the seam, close to the top ( the locket). You might expect to see the broad arrow/ crown/ and maker’s initials e.g. H G R (Hepburn, Gale and Ross), but I cannot see any such markings from the photo. As Dave66 mentioned, I have an interest in recording the serial numbers of the surviving Siamese Type 62 Bayonets; these were refinished Patt 1907 bayos supplied in 1920, to accompany a contract for 10,000 SMLE rifles by BSA. It would be very greatly appreciated if you could run, not walk, over to your friendly dealer and snap a photo of the tiger head and serial number. We are currently trying to reach the 300 number, and are about 292 from memory. Regards, JMB For £295, you should also get a scabbard (probably a sheet metal one, as the leather rotted away in humid climate) with it. If ORIGINAL leather, it should have the Smiling Tiger head stamped near the seam. Since you are clearly addicted, suggest you don’t fight it…..,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew1966 Posted 17 January Author Share Posted 17 January Good evening Dave. Thank you for reply and your kind words about my latest purchase. I have looked at both the locket and the chape with a magnifying glass but sadly can not see any markings. I have also tried very gently cleaning the leather especially along the seem and then applying a little clear boot polish but still can't see any markings. Thank you for your information about the siamese 1907 and the link to jmb. I have messaged the dealer asking for more pictures and especially of the markings and will forward any information on to him. My relationship with the No.4 bayonets started with my grandfather's. I will confess it sat in a box for many years until during the covid lock down, while doing some sorting out I took a closer look at it. I googled the numbers on it and my fascination grow from there. I purchased a book by I D Skennerton called The British Spike Bayonet. It gives so much information on them, even down to how much they cost. So I have currently a mk1, the 3 x mkii singer, savage and long branch. I have a mkiii also and am now trying to find an example of each of the 4 manufacturers who assembled the mkii* I appreciate they regarded by many as the black sheep of British bayonets but still have a fascinating history behind them and without them I would not have discovered the 1907s Regards Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew1966 Posted 17 January Author Share Posted 17 January Good evening JMB Thank you for your message. With reference to the siamese bayonet I saw today I have attached pictures of the blade and details of the dealer who has it. I have also messaged him asking for more pictures of the makings. As you can see it has a leather scabbard and as I really wasn't sure what I was looking at I can't say if the scabbard was marked in anyway. Once I have any further information I will let you know. Regards Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave66 Posted 17 January Share Posted 17 January (edited) The number 4’s are a all part of the British army’s bayonet evolution….so many things to collect, if you get bored there are always the P1888 and P1903’s….lovely things. I’ve added a link to the wild tiger here just for ease…..http://www.grahamcurriemilitaria.co.uk/weaponry/edged-weapons/bayonets/siamese-1907-smle-type-62-bayonet Edited 17 January by Dave66 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 17 January Share Posted 17 January (edited) Andrew66, Thanks for that very clear photo! That serial is 9589, which is a new number for us, so thanks again. There were only 10k of these made, same number as for Vickers Patt. 07, so you might think about buying one. In any case, do please keep us updated with any additional Smiling Tigers that you may come across. Regards, JMB EDIT The scabbard shown is leather…..we will wait for you to tell us if it is an original. Edited 17 January by JMB1943 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t.ryan Posted 17 January Share Posted 17 January Andrew1966, A nice start to your 1907 bayonet collection and always better if they have nice clear markings as your new Wilkinson does. With the later scabbard, I have one similar, but with cape marked and nothing I can see on locket. Sometimes I have seen a mark under the staple. The Siamese bayonet #9589 is in great condition and if the scabbard was the original lion marked scabbard, would be a must have. Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t.ryan Posted 18 January Share Posted 18 January Andrew1966 This is what an original 1907 Siamese scabbard should look like, this one is #173, very rare to find and are numbered somewhere between 1 and 10,000 same as the bayonets Cheers, TR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 18 January Share Posted 18 January 9 hours ago, Andrew1966 said: Good afternoon. So when I posted my first 1907 I was told that they become quite addictive. So my first one was a Chapman, my second a vickers and they are joined by a Wilkinson. Bought this today along with a very nice Savage made No.4 mkii pig stick bayonet. Andrew Be careful! Things can easily get out of hand..... Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave66 Posted 18 January Share Posted 18 January 8 hours ago, 4thGordons said: Be careful! Things can easily get out of hand..... Chris Lovely Chris….love the top pic showing the different patterns. S.L.R. And S.A.80 are on this years list for me along with No4 Mk1 (if I can afford it!), saw. No8 but hellishly expensive…https://www.jdrmilitaria.co.uk/product/rare-british-no8-bayonet-1946-dated-by-poole-smt-scottish-motor-traction-marked/ Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew1966 Posted 18 January Author Share Posted 18 January Good evening chris My compliments that is one awesome collection. Might I ask how long you have been collecting. Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 18 January Share Posted 18 January 2 hours ago, Andrew1966 said: Good evening chris My compliments that is one awesome collection. Might I ask how long you have been collecting. Andrew Hi Andrew, Thank you. I bought my first bayonet (a Pattern 1913) at an "antiques market" in Wellingborough (Northants) in 1985, I rode home with it on the handlebars of my bike! .... so that's....... gulp....... about the same time I was given a No4 MkI by a chap I worked with who had been in the 8th Army - it wasn't until some years later I realized what it was. I also got a couple early on at a market at Stalham when visiting my grandparents in Norfolk. There were fairly long periods where I didn't buy much (time at uni / grad school etc) and my examples (while numerous) are not the best quality - but I have kept plugging away. These days I mostly rely on online sales and hunt out mislabeled or misunderstood examples. There are a couple of obvious gaps - I don't have an undamaged hooked-quillon P1907 or a MkI p1888 - but the prices for those are getting silly so I am resigned to those gaps and instead look for minor variations in more common types. I know books are a little passé (in the light of the internet sources) but I have found the Skennerton and Richardson text shown above to be a really useful guide and starting point for most questions that arise with British bayonets. Not the be-all-and-end-all, but my usual starting place. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrylee Posted 19 January Share Posted 19 January For interest - Makers Markings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew1966 Posted 19 January Author Share Posted 19 January Good afternoon to everyone. An update on the Siamese 1907. I have been for another look at it this morning and particularly the leather scabbard. Thank you t.ryan for the picture of an original scabbard and the markings i should be looking for. Sadly it has no visible makings on either the leather or the chape or locket. The frog button is an oval teardrop type with the three rivets showing and both the locket and chape have a curved edge where they meet the leather. Neither the locket or chape have been blackened in anyway, they are both the base metal colour and have good deal of surface rust. I am wondering if there might be any clues in the above for identifying the scabbard and possibility of it being the original. Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t.ryan Posted 19 January Share Posted 19 January Andrew, The Siamese contract was a private contract by BSA, and the scabbards were similar to what you described above. From what we have learnt, when new, the leather was light brown coloured and stamped like the sample above. There were no inspectors marks on the locket or cape so only markings on the scabbards are as shown above. From ware and tear to the leather, some of the markings are very faint and hard to see. Cheers, TR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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