Terence Norsworthy Posted 15 January Share Posted 15 January Hi ,this is first post on this forum. I have attached of photo of No 2 Company RAMC It was taken in April 1917 presumably somewhere in France or Belgium. In the middle row (centre) is my grandfather. I just wondered if anyone could shed some light on the photo. I believe his company were attached to 25 th (2nd) Wessex Field Ambulance and they saw action in various locations throughout the conflict. I believe my Grandfather had two army numbers 79799 and 1502 for some reason. Any information that anyone has regarding the RAMC would be greatly appreciated, especially if anyone else out there has that same photo or has any information about no 2 company. Thank you in advance Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 15 January Share Posted 15 January (edited) Welcome to the Forum. A slightly odd photo in that the badge at the top has Queen Elizabeth's crown! RV Norsworthy had a series of numbers. 1502 was his first Territorial Force number, under which he went to France in 1914 with 25th Field Ambulance. EDIT..I need to revise the next two paras as they are incorrect... [The Territorial Force were renumbered to unique 6 digit numbers in 1917. His new number was 200465.] Not correct. He was issued a new number 79799 early 1916. [He must have then signed up to the Regular Army and given a new number 79799] Not correct. He re-enlisted Short Service in Feb 1919 at which point he was given a new RAMC number 200465..... ...which was in turn renumbered to the new 7 digit Army number c1920 of 7250596. That's just to get you started! Charlie Edited 15 January by charlie962 Slight error in my thinking 1916-19 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 15 January Share Posted 15 January (edited) He has two surviving service records that are held by the Ministry of Defence: 1). Name Rv Norsworthy Birth Date 29 Nov 1891 Service Number 7250596 Rank Army Other Ranks, Discharges for 1921-1939 Reference Number ADT000439480 2). Name R Norsworthy Birth Date 29 Nov 1891 Service Number 7250596 Rank Army Other Ranks, Discharges for 1939-1971 Additional Regiment RE Reference Number ADH001166688 I found these references on Ancestry who have a copy of the MoD index. Problem is that these records are in the course of transfer to the National Archives and there seem to be long delays in getting a response to a request you are entitled to make for a copy of the records. Edited 15 January by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Norsworthy Posted 15 January Author Share Posted 15 January Wow that is Amazing, I can't believe I received your kind response so quickly. With regards to the photograph, I had the original enhanced some time ago.They may have taken some liberty's with our late Queens crown. I have been trying to peace together my late grandfather's time overseas, he passed away when I was Six Years old .the photograph has always fascinated me ,I always wondered how many of no 2 company survived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tullybrone Posted 15 January Share Posted 15 January 2 minutes ago, charlie962 said: He has two surviving service records that are held by the Ministry of Defence: 1). Name Rv Norsworthy Birth Date 29 Nov 1891 Service Number 7250596 Rank Army Other Ranks, Discharges for 1921-1939 Reference Number ADT000439480 2). Name R Norsworthy Birth Date 29 Nov 1891 Service Number 7250596 Rank Army Other Ranks, Discharges for 1939-1971 Additional Regiment RE Reference Number ADH001166688 Suggests he re-enlisted in RE for WW2. You could try and look for his RE Tracer Card on Ancestry or Findmypast - forget which one has them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 15 January Share Posted 15 January (edited) 8 minutes ago, tullybrone said: You could try and look for his RE Tracer Card on Ancestry or Findmypast - forget which one has them Findmypast Which just shows enlisted RE 13/2/34 and discharged 7/11/39. Edited 15 January by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Norsworthy Posted 15 January Author Share Posted 15 January Sorry for repeating my post I'm just getting used to this forum .Forgive my ignorance but could I ask what a RE tracer card is ? Unfortunately I'm not a member of ancestry, is there someone I could contact at MOD or war records office? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin RussT Posted 15 January Admin Share Posted 15 January 1 hour ago, Terence Norsworthy said: No 2 Company RAMC Welcome to the Forum ! I might be having a senior moment - but I'm not understanding the concept of "Company" with respect to any RAMC unit. For example, FA's were sub-divided into 3 Sections termed A, B & C. I see the photo does not include itself the word "Company" but someone has, for some reason, entitled it as such - do you know why it has so been titled? Regards Russ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 15 January Share Posted 15 January Company seems to gave been used in England for training? Note I've got my explanation of Norsworthy's service numbers slightly out. His number 76799 was issued I now believe in early 1916. His number 200465 was not a TF renumber but a Short Service (untill 1922) re-enlistment in Feb 1919 to the RAMC. Sorry for the confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 15 January Share Posted 15 January (edited) No2 Company was based at Aldershot in 1914. This extract from an interesting lecture on the net. Friends of Millbank - The RAMC in 1914 https://www.friendsofmillbank.org/downloads/the RAMC in 1914.pdf Edited 15 January by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin RussT Posted 15 January Admin Share Posted 15 January Thanks for posting - the pre-war RAMC organisation along the lines of Companies is new to me. Russ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin RussT Posted 15 January Admin Share Posted 15 January Here is a relevant page from the SR of No 1124 Pope (pre-war TF enlistment) from the same unit as Norsworthy and who deployed on the same date of 05/11/1914 as per the 1914 Medal Roll for the 25th (1/2nd Wessex) FA. No mention of being in a "Company" - rather they are already constituted as a FA pre-war. Is the Company structure just for the Regulars I wonder? Russ Image courtesy FMP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin RussT Posted 15 January Admin Share Posted 15 January I'm definitely struggling this one - need a fresh pair of eyes and a clearer brain I read the presentation by Alistair MacMillan - and good it is too. But I'm still not getting how the RAMC "Company" structure fits with TF RAMC units. How can a part-time ("Saturday-night soldier" type) TF RAMC man who joins his local RAMC TF unit e.g. the 2nd Wessex FA RAMC headquartered at Plymouth pre-war (Millbay in 1911) be stationed at, say, No 2 Company in Aldershot? As noted above, I'm only seeing these RAMC Companies as pre-war Regular units which, as explained in the presentation, were used to make up various RAMC field units e.g. FAs, CCSs, Hospitals etc once war broke out, whereas the TF RAMC units were already constituted into certain nominal field-type units from the outset. Help ! Russ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 15 January Share Posted 15 January (edited) The photo (not clear) shows no sign of medal ribbons or overseas chevrons so I'm presuming not later than 1917 stated by op. There's a cwgc record for a man in no2 Company RAMC who died 1920 Aldershot. Buckley 205537. He was a 1919 Short Service enlistment. He has a surviving service record but strangely within that I saw no clue as to No2 Company. Edited 15 January by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin RussT Posted 15 January Admin Share Posted 15 January Possibility Based on his TF number, he enlisted 4 years TF 1910/1911 and so became time expired in 1915/1916. He was either called up or re-enlisted into the RAMC - as you say his 79799 number stems from 1916, allotted by the RAMC in Aldershot. This would account for him having no TF re-number but does have a new RAMC 5-digit number from the Regular number series. The Company structure was still nominally active as a training unit in the UK (Aldershot in his case, No 2 Coy) during the war. Places photo probably sometime in 1916 during his "training" period, noting that he already had some extensive experience, so probably deployed fairly soon after re-enlisting. Cracked? Russ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Norsworthy Posted 15 January Author Share Posted 15 January Hi Guys thanks for all the information it really is amazing. With reference to No 2 company on the photo I'm really not sure. I have the original which has that reference. The photo is dated April 1917 and I'd always made the assumption it was taken in France or Belgium. Someone on another group did Some research for me and apparently the 25 th wessex were at Moislains in April according to there war diaries. I'm very new to all this and apologise if I'm not much help. I've always been under the impression my grandad was at the Somme and Passchendaele, this has just been verbally passed down through family. Cheers for all your help guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin RussT Posted 15 January Admin Share Posted 15 January I would say that photo is defo in the UK and probably 1916 although could be early 1917 as noted. Russ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 16 January Share Posted 16 January (edited) I'm sure No 2 Company RAMC was at Aldershot, long before, during and long after WW1. I can find a lot of service records that mention this Company. Example Ashby 128099 Posted to No 2 Co RAMC for duty at Connaught Hospital Aldershot, 4/12/18. I can see Connaught Hospital featuring on other men's records with 1918 posting to No 2 Company. Edited 16 January by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tullybrone Posted 16 January Share Posted 16 January (edited) 10 hours ago, Terence Norsworthy said: Sorry for repeating my post I'm just getting used to this forum .Forgive my ignorance but could I ask what a RE tracer card is ? Unfortunately I'm not a member of ancestry, is there someone I could contact at MOD or war records office? Hi, RE Tracer Card was an index card used to record brief details of a man’s service in Royal Engineers. Most UK libraries allow free access to Ancestry (and or findmypast) for their members. You need to contact MOD re the 2 service records. Your man’s papers appear to be held there so you need to make an online application for them via the below link. https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-records-of-service/apply-for-the-records-of-a-deceased-serviceperson There will likely be 2 charges made for preparing a PDF copy of each record if they are filed separately. I don’t recognise your “war records office” reference Steve Edited 16 January by tullybrone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Norsworthy Posted 16 January Author Share Posted 16 January Thank you so much for all the information and providing the link. I will try to obtain his service records ASAP. Cheers Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Norsworthy Posted 16 January Author Share Posted 16 January 8 hours ago, RussT said: Possibility Based on his TF number, he enlisted 4 years TF 1910/1911 and so became time expired in 1915/1916. He was either called up or re-enlisted into the RAMC - as you say his 79799 number stems from 1916, allotted by the RAMC in Aldershot. This would account for him having no TF re-number but does have a new RAMC 5-digit number from the Regular number series. The Company structure was still nominally active as a training unit in the UK (Aldershot in his case, No 2 Coy) during the war. Places photo probably sometime in 1916 during his "training" period, noting that he already had some extensive experience, so probably deployed fairly soon after re-enlisting. Cracked? Russ Hi can I just say a big thank you to everyone who has been in contact via this forum. Forgive my late replies, I am currently just out of hospital after hip replacement. There is a lot of information to digest before I contact MOD. I was particularly interested in that grandad did his training in aldershot. I am attempting to write a fictional novel about the RAMC in WW1 at the moment, just for my own enjoyment loosely based on my grandfather. It will be interesting to find out how much fact differs from my interpretation. Cheers once again everyone. Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 16 January Share Posted 16 January (edited) 3 hours ago, Terence Norsworthy said: particularly interested in that grandad did his training in aldershot. At the start of Nov 1914 the 25th Field Ambulance was at Hursley Park. War Diary is here on Ancestry. https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/60779/images/43112_1703_0-00445?treeid=&personid=&queryId=75080982-2839-49d6-b180-80f216d6024d&usePUB=true&_phsrc=tLN761&_phstart=successSource&pId=486661 I think his time with No 2 Company was after returning from France at some point 1916/17. He would then not so much be training but perhaps working at a military Hospital at Aldershot like the Connaught? Edited 16 January by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Norsworthy Posted 16 January Author Share Posted 16 January Thank you Charlie, it would great to have a time machine just to go back and see. Awesome information cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 16 January Share Posted 16 January I think I'm clearer in his probable service having looked at a number of men with surviving records. But I'm open to correction!! He was born in Nov 1891, Plympton. He will have joined the RAMC Territorial Force very early 1912, indicating his commitment to serve in Devon with the 2nd Wessex Field Ambulance. He was allocated number 1502. At the time of attestation the commitment was to 4years home service with a liability to mobilisation (embodiment) in case of an emergency. There was also a potential to be required to do an extra year in an emergency. Thus he would have been embodied upon declaration of war August 1914. He then must have signed a further agreement to indicate willingness to serve overseas. Thus he went to France with the 25th (2nd Wessex) Field Ambulance in Nov 1914. Come the end of 1915, his 4year TF commitment was coming to an end. He could be required to stay on an extra year and even then been liable to further call up under the Military Service Acts 1916. I think at this point he probably agreed to sign a Short Service Attestation and was given that new number 76799 in Jan 1916. It could also be that this was about the time he returned from France to England to serve in No2 Company at Aldershot. Supposition I know but to me now seems logical. An example of another Plymouth man who attested TF early 1912 (and was given number 1599 in April 1912) gives a idea of the terms. See para 16, (which I think had been amended in 1911). Courtesy Findmypast There is a lot more detail on TF attestation, embodiment etc plus detail on the RAMC in the LongLongTrail and well worth a closer study. Hope that helps. Charlie PS. Russ touched on this earlier: 14 hours ago, RussT said: Based on his TF number, he enlisted 4 years TF 1910/1911 and so became time expired in 1915/1916. Plus here's another record with a very close number for the same unit, suggesting Norsworthy attested about the same date, early Jan 1912. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Norsworthy Posted 16 January Author Share Posted 16 January Wow I am completely gobsmacked, thank you so much. You're detective work is absolutely amazing, it really helps to paint a picture of his early career In the TF and gives a logical explanation for the change of service numbers. He passed away when I was six years old so I am trying to piece together his RAMC career. I have his original group photo and his cap batch, both amazing keepsakes. I have a record of the 25 th wessex war diaries, I'm assuming he may have been involved in some of the conflict they encountered along the way .I will attempt to attach the notes in case they are of any interest. Thank you once again it really is appreciated. I have also included another photo, supplied another kind enthusiast. Im not sure if my grandfather is in this one, unfortunately it isnt very clear and was just titled somewhere in France. Its an incredible piece of history all the same Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now