LadyK Posted 13 January Share Posted 13 January I am a new member seeking help with identifying the first ribbon on the bar in the photo. It appears to be white-black-white in equal widths, similar to the one in the query by Andrew1966, posted 17 Oct 2023. I have spent hours looking at online images of medals and the closest comparison I have found is to the Military Cross. However, upon searching detailed information about the Military Cross, I found that the middle colour was purple, not black, as the ribbon on the bar featured seems to be. I do not possess this bar. I am researching on behalf of a cousin who lives in England. I live in NZ. The awards were originally issued to DM2 155746 Pte Robert Wicks ASC, a learner driver in a mechanical transport unit of the Army Service Corps. I understand that the other ribbons on the bar represent the BWM, the Victory Medal and the George V General Service Medal. I have read that the GSM was always issued with a clasp denoting the place where it was earned. Of this collection, my cousin holds the Victory Medal only, and the others are missing. Pte Wicks served from 29.1.16 to 24.4.19. He was discharged, under sickness regulations, at Woolwich Dockyards. I hope that is sufficient information given, for someone to help me in my quest. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNCVR Posted 13 January Share Posted 13 January Ribbon of the Military cross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin DavidOwen Posted 13 January Admin Share Posted 13 January Welcome to the forum. It is of course possible the medal ribbons could be associated with another individual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyK Posted 13 January Author Share Posted 13 January Thank you for your comment. My cousin's collection came into his possession upon clearing out his mother's house after she no longer needed it (not sure if the reason was death or going into a care home at that time). One lot of medals he knew had belonged to his father who served in the Royal Navy during WWII. The others were from WWI, consisting of the bar and BWM ribbon (without the medal) and the Victory Medal with Pte Wicks' inscription on the rim. A Cross of Lorraine lay separately, but with the other items and that is also something I would like help with, as I have not seen the same depiction online yet. Your suggestion that the bar could be associated with another individual is a possibility, and I bear that in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave66 Posted 13 January Share Posted 13 January This is a good link to get the basics of the M.C. https://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/britishguide/military_cross/mc.htm Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TullochArd Posted 13 January Share Posted 13 January 31 minutes ago, LadyK said: Your suggestion that the bar could be associated with another individual is a possibility, and I bear that in mind. The four medal ribbon bar and pair are not directly associated as Pte Wick's was never commissioned and therefore would have been illegible for the MC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyK Posted 13 January Author Share Posted 13 January (edited) Thank you Dave66. I have just had a look at that link, and I realise that the Military Cross was not available to "other ranks" at the time of WWI, whereas the Military Medal was. That knowledge eliminates the Military Cross from my search this time. Thank you TullochArd for your comment. Like David Owen, you think that there is another individual involved in my cousin's collection. The mystery deepens then. Another cousin in the family is working through Ancestry to try to get the service records for Pte Wicks, If he is successful, that will be a big help. At this stage I cannot imagine who the bar is connected to, if not to Pte Wicks. The online photos of the Military Cross show such a bright, violet shade of purple that it is hard to believe that the ribbon on the bar could represent that award. Edited 13 January by LadyK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TullochArd Posted 13 January Share Posted 13 January 35 minutes ago, LadyK said: The online photos of the Military Cross show such a bright, violet shade of purple that it is hard to believe that the ribbon on the bar could represent that award. I'd offer that the back of your MC ribbon shows that inky deep purple colour in a slightly less "black" shade. In the order of precedence it is also exactly where you would expect an MC to be mounted on such a bar. Hard to believe it may be - but an MC ribbon it is - 100 years of sitting in a drawer or biscuit tin does strange things to fabric! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 14 January Share Posted 14 January 5 hours ago, LadyK said: I am a new member seeking help with identifying the first ribbon on the bar in the photo. It appears to be white-black-white in equal widths, similar to the one in the query by Andrew1966, posted 17 Oct 2023. I have spent hours looking at online images of medals and the closest comparison I have found is to the Military Cross. However, upon searching detailed information about the Military Cross, I found that the middle colour was purple, not black, as the ribbon on the bar featured seems to be. I do not possess this bar. I am researching on behalf of a cousin who lives in England. I live in NZ. The awards were originally issued to DM2 155746 Pte Robert Wicks ASC, a learner driver in a mechanical transport unit of the Army Service Corps. I understand that the other ribbons on the bar represent the BWM, the Victory Medal and the George V General Service Medal. I have read that the GSM was always issued with a clasp denoting the place where it was earned. Of this collection, my cousin holds the Victory Medal only, and the others are missing. Pte Wicks served from 29.1.16 to 24.4.19. He was discharged, under sickness regulations, at Woolwich Dockyards. I hope that is sufficient information given, for someone to help me in my quest. Thank you. I simply increased the brightness on the picture and the middle colour as purple (and not black) became very obvious. As everyone else has previously stated it is clearly that of the Military Cross: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyK Posted 14 January Author Share Posted 14 January Thank you all for your helpful comments regarding the first ribbon on the bar, which I will give back to my cousin. Are there any thoughts you might share about the Cross of Lorraine in this collection, or do I need to create a new topic for that to be discussed? I have guessed it to be a French civilian award presented to a foreign national in WWI but I would welcome advice about it. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aim Posted 14 January Share Posted 14 January 21 hours ago, LadyK said: I understand that the other ribbons on the bar represent the BWM, the Victory Medal and the George V General Service Medal. I have read that the GSM was always issued with a clasp denoting the place where it was earned. The Medal Yearbook 2021 calls the "George V General Service Medal" "The General Service Medal, 1918-62". It was awarded with a clasp for one of 19 different actions between those dates, and others of these clasps could be awarded if necessary. The clasps are attached to the medal ribbon, but nothing was added to the ribbon bar however many clasps you received. aim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyK Posted 14 January Author Share Posted 14 January Thank you for that further information. Do you know whether this medal, when it was issued to recipients for WWI service, would have been inscribed around the rim with the serviceman/woman's details, as other WWI medals were? Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TullochArd Posted 14 January Share Posted 14 January 12 minutes ago, LadyK said: Thank you for that further information. Do you know whether this medal, when it was issued to recipients for WWI service, would have been inscribed around the rim with the serviceman/woman's details, as other WWI medals were? Thank you. GSM 18 was impressed with recipients details on all occasions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyK Posted 14 January Author Share Posted 14 January Thank you for that further information. Do you know whether this medal, when it was issued to recipients for WWI service, would have been inscribed around the rim with the serviceman/woman's details, as other WWI medals were? Thank you. Thank you, TullochArd for your response to my query. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TullochArd Posted 15 January Share Posted 15 January 16 hours ago, LadyK said: Are there any thoughts you might share about the Cross of Lorraine in this collection, or do I need to create a new topic for that to be discussed? I have guessed it to be a French civilian award presented to a foreign national in WWI but I would welcome advice about it. You've asked the question and you merit a response LadyK. This is my opinion and I'm sure if it's wildly out another forum chum will correct me. I fear your Lorraine Cross is only connected to WW1 by association with the other two WW1 items it has taken up residence with. True, the Lorraine Cross has a long standing historic presence and this does have a Alsace Lorraine resurgence during the Great War but that in no way reflects it's later prominence in WW2 as the symbol of Vichy France. I'm with you on your guess that it is civilian. The military medals I've seen with have a depiction of the Lorraine Cross rather than an actual representation. It's not military. My money's on this being is a variation on Fraternal/Masonic "patriarchal cross” which within the fraternity and can be found in a variety of Masonic documents and regalia. For comparison I attach a Masonic Knights Templar Preceptor & Past Preceptor Collarette badge. How about that for a totally new direction of family research for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyK Posted 15 January Author Share Posted 15 January Thank you for responding to my question re the Cross of Lorraine. I completely accept your comments and realise that the cross in my cousin's collection may have nothing to do with his Pte Wicks. Through other genealogy research we have now established who Pte Wicks was and where he fits into the family tree. At this stage we are not aware of anyone in the family who was connected to the Masonic Order but may discover something in due course. Thank you again for your help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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