Help tracing merchant seaman in WWI

[andygo999]

Hi, I'm looking for some help to trace my grandfather's movements in WWI. We think Archibald Gourlay  served in the merchant navy and was possibly injured. I've put his details and what we've found out below, but if anyone can add in info or places to look I'd be very grateful.

I'm especially interested to find out how a Scotsman ended up living in the Pembrokeshire town of Neyland. Presumably the nearby port of Milford Haven may be a reason..... 

Many thanks in advance

Andrew Gourlay

My grandfather - Archibald Gourlay,

Born 31 Jan 1875 Kilwinning, Ayrshire, died 8 March 1948, Neyland, Pembrokeshire

Medal Card (birth year is wrong, unless it isn't his card)

I'm wondering if he served on the Darro in 1915 https://1915crewlists.rmg.co.uk/document/205985

As there's an Archie Gourlay from Ayrshire listed as an assistant steward, but the age doesn't quite match. Archibald would have been 39 turning 40 years old not 37.  

https://1915crewlists.rmg.co.uk/document/205985#&gid=1&pid=11

The same A Gourlay served later in 1915 on the Crispin 

https://1915crewlists.rmg.co.uk/document/200235

 https://1915crewlists.rmg.co.uk/document/200235#&gid=1&pid=2

Again, the age doesn't quite match but if he isn't my grandad it's quite a coincidence to have two Archibald Gourlays from Ayrshire of a similar age in the merchant navy around then....

The Darro list gives his previous ship as the Moana, but I can't find any listing for that.

Here's some more general info for background. 

He's listed on the 1881 census living at Kilwinning with the rest of the family - father Thomas Gourlay (b1843) coal miner, mother Jane (b1837) and 8 siblings - Peter, William, Margaret, Thomas, James, John, and Mary Jane.

According to the 1891 census Archibald was still at home in Kilwinning, aged 16 and working as a coal miner.

The next record definite record we have of him is in 1924, aged 49, living in Burry Port Carmarthenshire working as a sanitary inspector for Pembrokeshire County Council. He married my grandmother Annie Phillips that year.

I can't find him on any other census until 1939 living in Neyland, Pembs.

He died in 1948 aged 73. Here's a pic of Archibald with my dad, uncle and grandmother

[rolt968]

A number of oddments from various sources:

There is an Archibald Gourlay born in Kilwinning, boarding at 14 R(?)eadlhead Avenue, South Shields in the 1911 England Census. Age given: 32. Occupation: Insurance agent. (Census 1911, FindmyPast).

Unfortunately there is another Archibald Gourlay, born in Ayrshire about the right dates for the 1915 Crew Lists - Archibald Kenne[th] Gourley born 1878 in Tarbolton, mother's maiden name Kennedy. He appears in the 1881, 1891, 1901 and 1911 Censuses in Tarbolton and spelt Gourlay in all but the 1881 Census (scotlandspeople index). Aged 12, he is listed as a coal miner in the 1891 Census. No occupation has been transcribed in the 1901 Census, although he may have been a coal miner and the dittoes have been missed. (Various Scottish Censuses. FmP)

There is an Archibald Gourlay, aged 41, born in Kilwinning, boarding at 25 High Street, Bishop's Castle, Shropshire in the 1921 Census. He was the Sanitary Inspector and Borough Surveyor for Bishop's Castle Town Council. (Census 1921, England & Wales. FmP)

I can't see anything useful in the CR2 Cards (BT 364, etc.) for postwar merchant seamen (FmP)

I hope some of this is helpful.

RM

Edit: Apologies. I think that I have presented this in a confusing order. To clarify: I think that the man in South Shields in 1911 and Bishop's Castle in 1921 was your grandfather and that the Tarbolton man is another possibility for the steward in the 1915 crew lists.

Edited 13 January by rolt968

[Keith_history_buff]

'Cards dating from 1913 to 1921 were destroyed in 1969 for unknown reasons.'

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C3400

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/merchant-seamen-serving-since-1918/

[rolt968]

2 hours ago, Keith_history_buff said:

'Cards dating from 1913 to 1921 were destroyed in 1969 for unknown reasons.'

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C3400

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/merchant-seamen-serving-since-1918/

I had been hoping that Archibald Gourlay, 799658 had continued to serve at sea post war. Alas not - at least no evidence that he did.

RM

Edit: I hve seen CR 2 cards dating from 1919.

Edited 14 January by rolt968

[MerchantOldSalt]

If the MM Medal Card is for the correct Archibald Gourlay, then, as stated, he spent some part of the war at sea on Merchant Ships.  If my interpretation of the letters WO against the issue of his British War Medal is correct and means War Office my question would be why is this the case, did he spend time in the Army?  If he only spent time in the Merchant Service, surely the BWM would be issued, on application, by the Board of Trade.

Tony

Edited 14 January by MerchantOldSalt

[andygo999]

Thanks for replies so far.

14 hours ago, rolt968 said:

There is an Archibald Gourlay born in Kilwinning, boarding at 14 R(?)eadlhead Avenue, South Shields in the 1911 England Census. Age given: 32. Occupation: Insurance agent. (Census 1911, FindmyPast).

There is an Archibald Gourlay, aged 41, born in Kilwinning, boarding at 25 High Street, Bishop's Castle, Shropshire in the 1921 Census. He was the Sanitary Inspector and Borough Surveyor for Bishop's Castle Town Council. (Census 1921, England & Wales. FmP)

I'd spotted the South Shields Archibald but not the Shropshire one. Given his job it's possible/likely the Shropshire one is my grandfather - though the age doesn't match for either of them. My grandfather would have been 36 in 1911 and 46 in 1921.

14 hours ago, rolt968 said:

I can't see anything useful in the CR2 Cards (BT 364, etc.) for postwar merchant seamen (FmP)

I don't know what they are, could you clarify, or are they the ones destroyed in 1969?

2 hours ago, MerchantOldSalt said:

If the MM Medal Card is for the correct Archibald Gourlay, then, as stated, he spent some part of the war at sea on Merchant Ships.  If my interpretation of the letters WO against the issue of his British War Medal is correct and means War Office my question would be why is this the case, did he spend time in the Army?  If he only spent time in the Merchant Service, surely the BWM would be issued, on application, by the Board of Trade.

Tony

I know very little about my grandfather. I've assumed he was a merchant seaman because of what's on the medal card (assuming it's his). Was the mercantile medal given to anyone else apart from merchant seaman? He was definitely injured but I don't know how, when or in which service unfortunately...

Edited 14 January by andygo999

[rolt968]

This is the transcript for one of the A Gourlays as an example:

First name(s)     A
Archive     The National Archives
Last name     Gourlay
Series     BT364
Birth year     -
Date range     1918-1941
Birth place     -
Record set     Britain, Merchant Seamen, 1918-1941
Birth county/country     -
Category     Education & work
Event year     1918-41
Subcategory     Merchant Navy & Maritime
Discharge number     1099337
Collections from     Great Britain, UK None
Card type     CR2
 

They are available at the National Archives and Southampton Archives and online via FindmyPast.

Unfortunately from our point of view the cards for 1913 to 1919 (although I have seen cards which refer to 1919) were destroyed. The cards which survive begin postwar.

This is part of the information about them at FmP:

"The Merchant Navy Seamen 1918-1941 records include index cards that the Registrar General of Shipping and Seaman used between the two world wars to produce a centralised index to merchant seamen serving on British merchant navy vessels. The Board of Trade issued these cards and they fall into three types: CR1, CR2 and CR10. There are two or more cards for some individuals. These are volumes from The National Archives' record series BT 348, BT 349, BT 350 and BT 364. The originals are held by the Southampton Archives.

In most cases, the front of a card gives the basic biographical information about each individual – his name, his year and place of birth, his rank or rating, and so on. Initials were sometimes given rather than first names. Sometimes there is a physical description. You may also be able to see other information about your ancestor, such as discharge number, health insurance number, address of kin and so on.

The reverse of the card may be blank or may contain a list of official vessel numbers and signing-on dates, and/or a photograph and/or signature of the seamen. Sometimes a photograph is not on the reverse of the card but on a separate attached card. Where this is the case, use the arrow on the right side of the image. Where available, the photographs of the mariners are enormously evocative of the inter-war working-class men who made the British merchant navy what it was."

RM

 

[MerchantOldSalt]

"I know very little about my grandfather. I've assumed he was a merchant seaman because of what's on the medal card (assuming it's his). Was the mercantile medal given to anyone else apart from merchant seaman? He was definitely injured but I don't know how, when or in which service unfortunately..."

The Mercantile Marine Medal was issued on application to Merchant Seamen, Licensed Marine Pilots, Fishermen, and crews of Pilotage and Lighthouse Authority Tenders and post office Cable Ships, but before it was issued the recipient must first have qualified for the British War Medal which in the case of Merchant Seamen meant six months at sea during the war years.

The recipients did not have to spend the whole war at sea, only six months, and a voyage through a danger zone, to qualify for the two medals they could leave their ship and join the Army, many did.  In the case of the Archibald Gourlay on the medal card, it looks like he qualified for issue of his BWM whilst in the Army, I cannot think why else the medal would be issued by the War Office and not the BOT. Maybe other forum Members know the answer to that. This did not prevent him applying for the Mercantile Marine Medal however, it did not matter how you got your BWM, just that you had.

If this hypothesis is correct, there might well be a Medal Index Card for him showing the medals he was entitled to through service in the army, he might also have been due a Victory Medal but not due to his time in the Merchant Service.  There are several MICs to Archibald or A Gourlay but no Service or Pension records to prove the point that I can find at the moment

Tony

 

Edited 14 January by MerchantOldSalt

[rolt968]

3 hours ago, andygo999 said:

Thanks for replies so far.

I'd spotted the South Shields Archibald but not the Shropshire one. Given his job it's possible/likely the Shropshire one is my grandfather - though the age doesn't match for either of them. My grandfather would have been 36 in 1911 and 46 in 1921.

 

I think there is a little more chance of an age error when someone is boarding somewhere as the census information will have been providrd to the enumerator by the head of household.

RM